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Rick Warren works to soften anti-gay marriage image
April 7th, 2009, 12:22 pm · 77 Comments · posted by Martin Wisckol, Politics reporter
Saddleback Church Pastor Rick Warren continues to be haunted by past statements on gay marriage, and tried to soften his anti-gay marriage posture on the Larry King Show last night. Warren stood by his belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman, but said he’s never been an activist on the issue.
You may recall the video-taped interview that got him into hot water with some. In that Q&A before the Nov. 4 vote to implement the Proposition 8 gay marriage ban, Warren seemed to liken gay marriage to incest, pedophilia and polygamy.
“I’m opposed to having a brother and sister together and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to having an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.”
The interviewer then asks, “Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
“Oh, I do,” Warren responds.
Warren later posted a video on his Web site to try to clarify his view.
But with the Iowa Supreme Court legalizing gay marriage last week and Vermont OKing it today, Warren is still working on scrubbing his image. Here’s what he said on Larry King:
“You know Larry, there was a story within a story that never got told in the first place. I am not an anti-gay or anti-marriage activist. Never have been, never will be. During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement. Never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop. 8 was going.
“The week before the vote, somebody in my church said, ‘Pastor Rick, what do you think about this?’ And I sent a note to my own members that said, ‘I actually believe that marriage really should be defined - that that definition should be saved between a man and a woman.’ And then all of a suddenly out of it they made me, you know something that I really wasn’t. …
“I wrote to all my gay friends, the leaders that I knew and actually apologized to them. That never got out. There were some things said - everybody should have 10% grace when they say public statements and I was asked a question that made it sound like I equated gay marriage with pedophilia or incest which I absolutely do not believe. And I actually announced that. All of the criticism came from people that didn’t know me. Not a single criticism came from any gay leader that knows me and knows that for years we’ve been working together on AIDS issues.”
Hat tip to TheLiberalOC for posting the video of this part of the interview.
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DENA BUNIS, Washington bureau chief, 202-628-6381 or dbunis@ocregister.com
CHRIS KNAP, Politics team leader, 714-796-2240 or cknap@ocregister.com
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Congratulations Vermont today voting to legalize marriage equality. I am so proud to be from New England, a region always in the forefront of liberty.
Yea that’s just great brian, but when do little girls get the unicorn, rainbow and pink back??
I”m opposed to an obese salesman interpreting God so that all mankind may know the “truth”, as Rick sees it.
Well well what a surprise that Rick “Pass the Donuts” Warren is now backtracking on his bigoted position he has passionately held his entire life. It’s all politics and money for this snake oil salesman.
Rick may want to reread his bronze age myth and pay careful to the commandment concerning LYING. What a pathetic joke you are.
Congrats to Iowa and Vermont . You are now officially more progressive than California.
Rick Warren is a blatant compulsive liar. The man wouldn’t know the truth if it hit him upside the head. “Never once issued a statement” or an endorsement? There’s VIDEO of him that says different. He had youtube videos posted prior to the election urging people to vote yes on 8. Sounds like a statement to me. And to try and back out of the incest and pedophilia comments, well the videos are out there and the text is printed in this story too but no public apology is. Why is that? I wrote to my gay friends and apologized…yeah right. It never got out because he never wrote them I’m sure. Just like the non-existent donuts that he says he brought to the protestors outside his church.
Rick Warren is a liar, as clearly demonstrated on the Larry King interview. He didn’t need to go to a “meeting” to be a anti-gay marriage activist. He became an activist as soon as he told his congregation where he stood on the issue and to vote “yes” on 8. He and the rest of the evangi’s and mormons that like to think they can mess with human rights will sadly realize that their self-righteous ways are on the wrong side of history. Every single state will join the other 4 states in recognizing same-sex marriage. It will one day be a Federal right. People that voted Yes on 8 tell everyone to “get over it.” Soon enough, when justice and equality prevails, we will be the ones telling you to do the same.
The Bible says what it says. The thing about Christianity is this: you can either chose to believe the Word or not. That is your choice. God doesn’t require your love or your fellowship, He desires it.
Rick Warren is not a bigot for stating with sincerity and frankness what scripture says, and people who seek to re-write scripture are not progressives who deserve praise for their efforts. Ultimately, God gets to decide what truth and right is, not us. Castigating a man for his faith, and expecting him to change it to suit you, is not different from what you claim to be struggling against.
If you don’t like the message of God’s word, don’t partake of it. That’s pretty simple, isn’t it? Don’t attack Rick Warren because he chooses to express a biblical world-view, just change the channel.
It wont work, and why does this closet case bigot care anyways?
Pastor Goatie just can’t stand to not be in the news, can he?
92618, doesn’t the bible also say something about lying? Something Rick regularly does? Sorry, you can’t zero in on a small part of that book while ignoring the other 95% of it. It’s all or nothing if you truly believe in it.. We aren’t castigating him for his faith, we are doing so over his LYING. There’s a difference. Having faith is fine. What you choose to do with that faith is another matter entirely.
Rick–does the word Gluttony mean anything to you? GLUTTONY– as in the sin of GLUTTONY? Amazing….. how one obese man , can make a judgment call on which sin is a sin, when the Bible clearly points out the sin of gluttony. Pull the log out of your own eye Rick!
He’s a moron.
Why is it that a person who preaches the word of God is a bigot? If the good book denounces peter puffers are we supposed to sugar coat it and try to change it? I am really upset by Warren trying to ’soften’ his image. Who cares? Enough of trying to please everyone!!!!
Perhaps those who freely sling mud should look in the mirror a little closer. I have opinions too about people I do not know personally, but I know the difference between fact and conjecture. Read Psalm64.
GregandJeff, I agree with you for the most part. I didn’t note the fact in my post, but the truth is this: I see Rick’s biggest failure here as being one of compromising his own belief structure, not the fact that he holds those beliefs. I understand that some here view these beliefs as backwards, antiquated, etc… but integrity speaks, even if it is saying something unpopular.
I don’t know if Warren actively supported proposition 8 or not, by the way; I do not attend Rick’s church or listen to his messages. However, I think it really should not matter either way; it ought to be a non-issue. I understand that some of you are incensed by his views, but they ARE his views, and he has a right to both hold and express them. Express your own disgust with them if you must. But recognize this: your right to harbor your view and express it, and his right to do the same, are inextricably linked. You cannot remove one without threatening the other. So, although you may dislike what he stands for or has to say, remember that your view to express that very sentiment derives from the same source from which his freedom also flows. You labor under the shelter and protection of a blessing, and you must take care to ensure that you do not obstruct and destroy the very blessing that provides you the right to dissent.
92618 & Johhny redneck,
What does you’re celestial dictator say is your responsibility under his law?
Leviticus 20:13 “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
I would say that’s a pretty crystal clear directive.
Tricky Ricky Warren can eat a fat Rick!
I don’t see Bible quotes as holding any relevance when talking logic.
Equality, marriage or otherwise, is logical. Leviticus not so much. Has anyone ever read that entire section of the Bible, and not just the overstated 20:13? I can’t believe it holds any credence whatsover in modern society - and that is putting it mildly.
Badwolf, I’m not sure why you ask what you have. I suppose it is because you seek to make some sort of point, but it is not clear what that point is.
Be that as it may, know this: You are quoting from Levitical law. That is, what you are saying is in the old testament; it is from the Hebrew Troah. While it is part of scripture, it is not a command for Christians to follow, because as Christians we are not under the law. Next Sunday marks our remembrance of why: because Christ died to satisfy the demands of the law. That was the whole point of Christ’s death; Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. Your question misses the point because it speaks from a place of ignorance pertaining to Christ and scripture. You don’t understand God’s Word, or Christianity, because you have not heard the Gospel and you don’t understand the concept of redemption; you simply look up some passages and you quote them without understanding, thinking you are making a point.
The honest answer to your statement / question is this: I have no responsibility in scripture to do anything like what you mention. As a matter of fact, I have a responsibility to NOT do it. I am not called by Christ to enforce the law that Christ died to free men from, I am called by Christ to teach the freedom that people have in Christ. Christianity is about God’s love, not about hate; you don’t understand that because you are speaking from a place of fundamental ignorance.
god may find that detestable behavior, but who are we to judge and prohibit someone else from something heterosexual couples are entitled to? one of the major thing this country was founded on was the separation of church and state so while we may not agree with that lifestyle we don’t have any room to judge and withhold rights of others based on their lifestyle. ultimately god will decide when we each stand before him on judgment day. i am not a fan of rick warren although i did grow up in his church which i find to be plastic and looking to buy their salvation; i do have some respect for him in the fact that he’s carrying out his dream with his passion for religion. i am thoroughly sick of seeing him in the media.
92618,
Wrong. A typical response from someone obviously ignorant on the content of their own scriptures and the history of the religion. Find me the passage in the New Testament that admonishes you of your responsibility handed down to you from your sky daddy. You will be searching for a very long time. Below, you see jesus demanding the acceptance of all old testament commands.
From Matthew
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
You were saying?
Its interesting all the hate speech by those who want others to respect their life style against those who dare to disagree with them. Very tolerant. And attacking someone, making snide remarks just because he is a public figure when most making the comments obviously don’t know him or much about him.
Its ironic that Rick Warren is attacked when he has done more than many to reach out to the homosexual community in attacking AIDS. Many posting here are just showing their own bigotry and ignorance and knee jerk reactions to anyone who is a public figure who would dare to agree with the Bible about homosexuality.
It seems that there are a lot of anti-religious bigots who like to post their hatred.
Oh? You mean things like his publicity stunt to the Out of the Closet store in Weho to do some sort of damage control after the election? Sorry. Doing things for AIDS while very noble (and something a church SHOULD be doing) does not give you a free pass on other matters. To throw back the quote handed to me so many times by religious folks over the years, “I don’t hate the sinner (Rick), I just hate the sin”. In other words, I don’t hate Rick, but I do hate all his lying and grandstanding.
Don’t forget who gave the invocation for Choco-Jesus. How can you Obamanites reconcile that? Oh wait, for most of the reasons why liberials reconcile most things about other liberal Democrats. As long as you have good intentions, you can’t be a bigot, racist, or even wrong for that matter. Tolerance….yeah right.
Badwolf, you really do not understand what you are talking about. I understand that you want to appear smart and knowledgeable here, and you seem to be enjoying the opportunity to be smug in your perceived superiority… but you are doing so in an inexpert manner that only allows you to appear that way to other people who also have a limited understanding of scripture.
You really have no understanding of the verses you are quoting. But to be clear, the righteousness we have, which does exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, is the righteousness of Christ. We receive Christ’s righteousness, which is an assumed righteousness, not one of our own, because that righteousness is what Christ came to deliver to us by fulfilling the law in Himself. You don’t understand that because, while you may perceive yourself to be some kind of scholar (ostensibly because you can quote the odd verse to support your point), you don’t actually understand what the verses you are quoting mean, and you quote them out of context. And, that is also the same reason why you are content to be so dismissive of them.
Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, as stated in Matthew 5:17, a verse you managed to omit, but one which radically alters the context of the verses you quote. And, if you would read further than Matthew, you would understand that Christ’s death on the cross was meant as the fulfillment of the demands of the law. That is, Christ’s death was the fulfillment of the law as it pertains to us. This is the entire point of Christ’s death and resurrection; death that we might receive, by proxy if you will, credit for the payment required by the law, and resurrection, that we might receive also life. That is, in fact, the gospel message in a nutshell. You obviously don’t understand that, because you think that salvation is about perfection. However, that only means you don’t actually understand any of this at all, because if you did, you would realize that if God demands our absolute perfection under the law to this day, there would have been no need for Christ’s death on the cross.
May I suggest that you spend some time doing more than skimming scripture for purposes of making yourself feel smart? Read beyond the particular chapter you are in, pay attention to context, and get to the heart of what Christ was up to in His death on the cross; if you do that, then you will understand how misguided your statements are.
God bless you.
He is a FRAUD!
Can’t wait for his skeletons to come out of the closet.
Time to take SB Church’s tax exemption away!
yes, Iowa is your new sanctuary, please move there, they will welcome you with open arms, its a great gay friendly state, good housing prices, lots of jobs, fantastic quality of life, they are waiting for you, don’t delay.
Yes on 8 = Yes to hate
No thanks, don’t want to move to Iowa.
Gay marriage will be legal here someday. And no, the world won’t end.
Whether you agree with Rick Warren or not, the hate speech from those who oppose Rick is so ugly and uncivil. Even when posting comments on this site the rules are . 1. Keep it civil. 2. No profanity, vulgarity, racial slurs or personal attacks. Wow there are tons of violations on this article
For those who are so angered about so called “Hate Speech” there is sure a lot of hate coming out of their own mouths.
Talk about taking the log out of one’s eye.
WOW. how disturbing.
yeah, good luck with that
RIck Warren Is a people pleasing PAGEN. His views conform to whatever makes Rick Warren popular
Legally defining “marriage” as between a man and woman does NOT equate to discrimination any more than it is to define “veteran” as someone who served in the military.
If it’s legally wrong to restrict the definition of marriage then I want the state to legally recognize me as a veteran so I can get the same benefits.
I’m posting this on for SIDNEYPAT who had difficulty posting:
“The ad hominem attacks on Rick Warren have a familiar odor and that is that the writers fear that their real reason for their obsession with the word ‘marriage’ will not meet the test of reasonable argument.”
Warren would marry a cheeseburger if he could.
RE: Attacks… I can’t count the number of times someone has said something hateful and even obscene against gays in these comment sections, but I never see any of the religious folk protest that. I’ll go on record saying that no one should put down someone else for their religious beliefs. But I shouldn’t be put down for who I love either. Respect is a two way street. And it’s not just here…we’ve been flipped off by numerous church goers on their way to pastor Rick’s church in front of kids and everything which I thought was highly inappropriate and not a very Christian thing to do either. But when their leader lies as much as he does, I guess I can’t expect better from his followers now can I?
I’m sorry but preachers and ministers and all those religious types are liars.
GregandJeff, I’m sorry you got treated that way. You are right, it isn’t very Christian. People are people, and people do stupid things.
Mr. K, your comparison falls flat. A person gets veterans benefits for time served. You get paid for being in the military, it is essentially a job. And the benefits that come afterwards are akin to a pension. You wouldn’t expect to get a pension from an employer you have never worked for would you? The gay marriage situation you are comparing to would be like giving only SOME veterans benefits while ignoring the same benefits for other veterans even though they had been in the same military, and done the same job etc. It’s an unequal situation that cannot be justified from a legal standpoint. I know that many of you have a hard time accepting the fact that full marriage equality will be extended to gays and lesbians across the country someday, but that is the reality. It is already the reality in multiple countries and now multiple states. It will be in California too at some point. Some countries have had it for years, and Canada, Netherlands etc. are all doing just fine. The only downside to legalizing gays is to the bottom line of evangelical churches who eventually won’t be able to demonize us as “the enemy” anymore to raise a dollar in their collection plates.
Thanks 92618. I appreciate that. It was unfortunate. And they were even flipping off fellow straight Christians who were there supporting us. They were quite surprised and shocked. But when you stand on a corner long enough with a group of gay people, you see some rather surprising behavior from those who think Jesus has their back. The ironic thing was no one was out there protesting churches, the congregation or anything other then Rick Warren himself and yet these people were flipping us off on their way to church just because we were there. Crazy! I expect that at a shopping mall (been there done that) but not at a church.
Updated headline:
Rick Warren does the “soft shoe shuffle” on anti-gay marriage image
Christians believe that the Lord who created the universe decided that this behavior is unacceptable. We don’t hate homosexuals, so stop labeling us as bigoted or hateful. God, who is powerful beyond measure, actively works in those who trust him to help people be who he made them to be. He loves homosexuals and wants them to trust him.
You can measure how a church or a person follows God through the word and how they strive to follow it. (Emphasis on the word “strive” as humans will never completely reach perfection. But there is a huge difference between struggling with a sin, and completely accepting and living in it.)
It’s a simple matter of right and wrong. Not of one group disliking another different group.
If God exists, then such practices are sinful and we should do our best to legally stop this behavior.
But, if there is no God, then right or wrong is granted solely by whoever has the most power to enforce their views. In this case, homosexuality is still wrong as the majority in California clearly voted. If God doesn’t exist, then the majority has the right to do what it will, even if it is something that the minority doesn’t like. Observe an ant colony sometime to illustrate my point. Without God we are just complex animals living in a delusion of meaning and rights, little different than those ants.
Following this theoretical train of thought, if you think about it, there really is no such thing as an inherent or inalienable right. Any rights can be taken away if someone more powerful than our government came around. (This is theoretical, as I love the United States. But my real citizenship is in Heaven.)
The Constitution and Declaration of Independence, among other documents, are not eternal, but God, his Son, and his laws are.
(As a note about the laws, Badwolf, homosexuals and us did deserve death under the law, just as you quoted, but Jesus took all of our punishments on the cross that he might save us from all of these sins and then heal us from whatever our afflictions are. You need to read the entire bible to understand it’s cohesion and meaning. The Old Testament can only be truly understood through Jesus.)
why can’t a person post a logical thought on here?
I seem to get a no post because seems spammy reply… totall Bull
2 Parts - Part 1:
It’s seems that Rick Warren now is to pandering to the gays???
Oh yes… the economy is terrible here in O.C.
Maybe Warren’s Church is over extended financially and could be “foreclosed” like many other Real Estate properties have here too?
Oh God, I hope so.
His Church has lost a lot of its followers from Warren’s Prop 8 war against gays….
And now with his “Onward Christian Soldiers” in his Prop 8 Quest seemed to have ceased their donations because of their own economic woes in this Great over-priced O.C. economy…
2 Parts - Part 2:
But guess what??? Seems a lot of gays have extra expendable income.
Why??? No Kids!
So, unlike the financially problematic homophobe “families” that have made previous Donations to the Church…. Now they have to raise their children (Ka-Ching $$$$) with one hand financially tied behind their backs….
But I suspect that many of these families seemed to have found an idea to help make ends meet lately…. Just maybe by jilting Warren’s collection plate???
So… My guess is Warren is trying to Pander to Gays for some of their money (and from their still angered family and friends money too), but we all know better…
But I doubt most people (gays, their families and their friends) aren’t as stupid as Rick Warren thinks they are…
My hope, is that Warren’s cult won’t see a cent from many of us for his two faced policies of Bigotry towards gays, and their right to marry.
P.S. And eventually he loses his cult and fades away like the many con artists before him. (Swaggart, Bakers and that homophobic gay drug addicted prostitute using pastor in Colorado!)
GregandJeff, I have to be honest with you and say I voted for proposition 8. I have had a hard time accepting the idea of the term “marriage” being used towards relationships that I do not believe are recognized as legitimate by my faith. Before people go crazy, though, I want to say that I have no real interest in denying you the same rights (and responsibilities, by the way) that go along with a state recognized union; I have simply objected to the term “marriage” being applied to something that violates my faith. In the end, it really has been just about the word.
I myself recognize the intellectual problems inherent in this position. If we are honest as evangelicals, then we have to admit that there are many people leading lives which are not in accordance with the principles of my faith, who nonetheless can freely enter into marriage as defined by the state. This includes many people who self-identify as Christians, by the way; the label doesn’t make one’s life appealing to God. Were the primary basis for whether or not a marriage is recognized by the state whether or not that relationship was in accordance with God’s Word, then there would be many more people other than gay couples being denied marriages.
In my faith, Marriage is a term used to describe a covenant entered into between God and a couple, and it conveys the blessing that God has for this special state of union between a man and a woman. However, marriage as used by the state is just a term describing a legal framework surrounding the relationship between two people; It does not convey a sense of blessing from God, or even any particular religious meaning at all. As used by the state, marriage is not a religious institution, it is a legal agreement. There are many, many people who are ‘married’ in the eyes of the state who are not married in a biblical sense; this would include everyone married by a justice of the peace, or who are in a common law marriage. Conversely, there are also people who are married in the eyes of God who are not married according to the state.
The confusion comes because we use the term marriage to define both state sanctioned unions and the covenant relationship that people enter into before God. And, in a larger sense, it is a Christian tenet that the unions which we describe using the term “marriage” were designed and created by God… thus, human relationships between men and women, which God blesses under specific conditions, we call “marriage.” This meaning, and this use of the term marriage, is not the meaning or use of the term that the state commonly applies.
The reality is that what the state sanctions as “marriage” today has little to do with what God blesses as “marriage”; there is often no overlap between the two. The only real similarity remaining today is the word itself, and that last vestige is what we are clinging to and it is what we are all fighting about.
So let’s be honest and say we are fighting over a term and what that term represents. If we were (hypothetically) to create a separate kind of union in California to describe unions between same sex couples… that had exactly the same legal framework as marriage behind it, I would guess you would not accept that, because although in substance it is equal, in quality it is not the same. So, like me, it is the term and what it represents that is important to you, over and above the actual rights and responsibilities it describes.
So, how are we to resolve this? I don’t want you to use the term marriage, and you do want to use it. We are at a stalemate are we not? I am guessing, though, that this will go down in one of three ways. First, proposition 8 will be maintained and the state will get out of the marriage business altogether, leaving the term marriage to be used by the churches. I am not an advocate of this. Second, Prop 8 will be overturned and the term marriage in california will extend to unions between same sex couples. Third, California will create a civil union that truly is the same in all respects to marriage, and will recognize in state code both the judeo-christian heritage of the term marriage and the needs and rights of same sex couples.
To be blunt, I really don’t expect the state to do away with “marriage” (though they might). I think the more likely outcome is that the state will recognize that they use marriage in a fundamentally faithless, non-christian way already… and they will likely continue to do so, extending it to include gays and lesbians.
Don’t expect me to like it, however
badwolf Says:
April 7th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
What does you’re celestial dictator say is your responsibility under his law?
Leviticus 20:13 “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
There’s a lot of Junk like that in the Bible….
If You are married….
Did you put you wife to Death for NOT being a Virgin?
Chances are, You didn’t and she wasn’t!
If you’ve ever Worked on the Sabbath…. Don’t you have to kill yourself…
Or at the very least, someone put you to death???
It’s as bad as the Passage you’ve Quoted…
And there are many more ignoramus things like that in the Bible.
For God’s sake, use some common sense!
Chris, both you and Badwolf simply don’t understand Christianity. You don’t understand scripture. Please, if you are going to talk about something, at least please learn what it is really all about. Read the NEW testament, and learn about Christ, what He did, and why. That’s where the CHRIST in CHRISTian comes from anyway… so don’t you think it would suit your argument a bit better to talk about what is actually IN that part of the bible than to harp on the few passages of scripture that you know?
92618, You aren’t going to tell me that Leviticus is in the New Testament are you?
I understand the New testament…
I was pointing out that Badwolf loves to hate per old testament wrath
and I was pointing out the stupidity of it….
As Per New testament….
Jesus taught love, forgiveness and understanding….
Yet there are many a “CHRISTian” who believe the fear of God mentality is the only way into heaven.
I think (if there is a god or a heaven) that it is your good intentions, love and deeds that will get one into to heaven.
I think JUST following (one) Religion WON’T.
I mean, since there are so many religions and I doubt some of you would think they can’t ALL be correct (Like the Satanic Religion just to name one.) So, judge not, least yee be judged…. Leave it to God.
Hey Chris - I’m sorry, I misunderstood you.
In reality what the new testament teaches us is that it isn’t our works at all that get us into heaven. The Bible teaches us that salvation is a gift from God, attained only through our faith: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast”.
Essentially, what the new testament teaches is that our faith in Christ and the salvation He offers is the sole criteria for our salvation. And even then, our capacity FOR faith is itself a gift from God. We can demonstrate our faith through works, but our works do not save us.
So in a sense, it isn’t your good intentions, love, and deeds that save you, as you have suggested; that is not the message the Bible teaches. But you are right that Christ taught love and forgiveness. Christ came to deliver redemption to everyone willing to accept it, but to do that, one has to accept Christ Himself, because Christ literally is our salvation; Christ is the fulfillment of the law, and his acts the payment of the penalty it exacts; this is what badwolf does not understand.
Christ gives us the gift of salvation, but one cannot accept a gift without receiving the bearer of it. How can one receive a gift from someone you do not believe exists? Either you do not believe, and hence do not receive the gift, or you receive the gift and hence believe. One cannot receive a gift and then claim the sender was illusory.
Hi 92618….
I like some of what you say….
But the logic of “the gift” eludes me.
I think too many holy wars have been fought over this nonsense.
So I have to believe that Jesus exist and I’m in Heaven…
So I can go out and murder, steal and lie like Bush?
Or lesser extent like Warren?
Because I’m SAVED, and it Deeds, Etc, Don’t Matter?
Isn’t that a little High and Mighty to think that Jews, Moslems, Buddhists and countless Etc. won’t get into heaven….
Just because YOU say so?
I’d be more likely to believe there is No God or a “Christ” as you know him, then to believe that You and Your followers are the ONLY ones that are “Correct” in the Theology of Heaven admittance.
Catholics aren’t like Protestants, Mormons aren’t like Baptists….
And countless more ALL claim to be Christians….
And Almost to a Key FORSAKE ANYONE else who believer’s in a GOD that doesn’t include a Christ???
How can You (or anyone) condemn so many People to damnation when your savior Says to Forgive and to Love???
The word is Arrogance.
Live and Let Live…
Leave others alone if they are Peaceful, Law abiding, not bothering others (I mean the dog isn’t barking, not because someone is gay) and NOT your relatives.
And just one parting thought….
What “if” you are wrong?
You’ll never know it,
because when you find out,
you’ll just be DEAD.
Let’s have the Peace and Love Now,
And let others worry about the afterlife.
Much Peace and Love - to You and Yours.
92618, thank you very much for your posting on your feelings on marriage. It was one of the most thoughtful and insightful post I have seen on the subject from EITHER side. I can’t speak for anyone except myself and my partner but it’s our feeling that both the term and the rights are important in equal proportions. While having all the rights would be awesome, calling it something different only serves the purpose of separatism, exclusion and reinforces the notion that gays are unequal and inferior. It’s just as offensive to me as being told that I have to use a separate drinking fountain to drink out of. Sure, I am still getting water. Possibly even the same quality. But each day I would be reminded that I was not good enough to drink out of that other fountain and something less compared to the others drinking from it. Like being told you are 2/3 of a person. And to me that is just unacceptable. Especially when as you pointed out yourself, there are many straight people married who do not embrace the true meaning of marriage. Biblical, or otherwise. The thought that someone like Brittany Spears can have a quickie marriage to someone she doesn’t even care about in Vegas with full rights, while gays cannot marry their long time partners they really love and have been with for decades in some cases, is just wrong to me. As wrong to me as gay marriage is to some of the people reading this. So yes. We are at an impasse and I am not sure how to resolve it to everyone’s satisfaction. I think in the end, allowing gays to marry will be looked back on as much of a non-issue as granting rights in all the other civil rights cases throughout history. Not too many people now would say that women shouldn’t be given the right to vote or that blacks should be able to marry and go to school. But at one time those views were widely held as the just and right thing to do. Biblical passages were even used to support such positions. The sky didn’t fall then, and I don’t think it will now either. Life will go on and we will all move on to something else.
Chris, you mentioned you thought it arrogant to say that deeds don’t matter, etc. i just want to clarify that I am not saying it, or in reality charging you with it; I’m just telling you what the Bible says. Understand that this is different from me condemning anyone; I’m not condemning you or anyone else for that matter, and in point of fact could not do that even if I wanted to (and I don’t). What scripture says is that people condemn themselves for the most part… because people choose to be and remain separated (estranged is a good way to look at it) from God by rejecting the gift that Christ offers. By rejecting Christ’s death, they reject also his resurrection… and in this state they remain spiritually dead. So, if one is spiritually dead, then physical death simply brings about the eternity of that spiritual death, which is the second death.
I hope you understand Chris that I have NO ill-will for you at all; if you took my missives to be some form of rebuke, that was a misunderstanding; I only wanted to tell you what the Bible actually says, as opposed to what you thought it said. And again, I’m not condemning anyone; everyone is free to embrace or reject the message. In fact, I do hope for your own sake that you are correct. Indeed it is just as you point out; if I die and there is nothing after, no loss is had.
I am curious, though, about what you see as so offensive in a person proclaiming their faith in a sincere way. To put it in simple terms, if you were walking down the street, and someone nearby had a strong conviction - a certainty in their mind - that there was a bus coming that you did not see… and that if you walked out into the street you would be hit by that bus and die… wouldn’t it fundamentally be a moral outrage for them NOT to share that information with you? That is, wouldn’t it be wrong from almost every moral perspective for them to keep that to themselves? And, given that the only inconvenience to you is having heard the warning… wouldn’t you want to hear it? Nobody here… not even God Himself… is trying to deprive you of the right to choose to walk out into that street, but why would it anger you to have someone warn you of the bus, even if it turns out that they were in fact wrong? That puzzles me.
Again Chris, all I was doing is relating to you what the Word says; there was no condemnation attached to it.
Blessings to you too, and I mean that sincerely.
Bravo 92618!!! I notice there aren’t too many people arguing with you at this point… I will point out that I do symphatize with GregandJeff’… because I think they have a thoughtful position, are debating the issue with civility and class, and bring up a lot of points with merit. I am also sorry that there are people that call themselves “Christians” (some right at Saddleback Church) that don’t carry themselves as such. They don’t speak for all of us, and I’d like to think, for the overwhelming majority of us.
As for Pastor Rick Warren… I like how all the hyporcites on here are quick to be haters on him because they simply disagree with his position that he personally believes marriage is between one man and one woman, which is what is quoted in scripture. Rick Warren never said he hated gays. Quite the contrary… if anyone actually follows (what a concept!) what he does, he is very active in the AIDS community, has many gay friends, and, yes, there are gay members of Saddleback Church. Rick simply chose to state back in November to his congregation (not on the campaign trail) that he believes marraige is between one man and one woman. Instead of people simply agreeing to disagree, there is all of this hate on him stating how he is a liar, scoundrel, snake-oil salesman, etc. Geez, the guy just stated how he feels. He’s entitled, just like we all are.
When the tsunami hit in Indonesia a few years back, Rick Warren asked his congregation to help the victims on the following weekend’s services. Above and beyond tithing, Saddleback raised approximately $1.5 million for the tsunami victims in one weekend. When Hurricana Katrina occurred, the same thing happened, another $1.5 million people was raised for the victims. Yes, a “mega church” like Saddleback can have a lot of visibility, which can be seen as a negative for those that think visibility is a bad thing. However, the detractors must admit that visibility and size can be a big positive in the case of a Hurricane Katrina where millions of dollars are raised immediately for victims, not to mention the ministries from Saddleback that physically went on-site. Do the haters despise these acts that took place also? How much money did the haters give to victims of Hurricane Katrina or the tsunami? Did they offer a helping hand?
Lastly, because Rick Warren may be (of which he will admit) overweight, that makes him a bad person? We should hate the guy because he may have a problem with weight? Why stop there? Let’s hate ALL people with weight problems. Why not? All fat people are sinners and should go to hell? What do the haters think about that? Lay off the cheap shots people. Rick Warren is the first to admit he isn’t perfect and isn’t immune to sin. The same goes for all of us.
Back-peddling is what one would usually expect from Rick Warren.
92618 says: I am curious, though, about what you see as so offensive in a person proclaiming their faith in a sincere way.
It doesn’t bother me in the least… if I ask for it.
but What bothers me is when they insist that others must heed “the WORD”.
Maybe you don’t see the Child in the Street that I’m trying to save from that Bus?
You don’t even know the Child that others had saved from that Religious BUS… It was me!
the “Words” and deeds of Religion almost killed me as a 13 year old….
A zealous praying parent of “great faith” can be a child’s worst nightmare when faced with real medical problems.
Do you think God Heals ALL through Prayer?
Or Would you see a doctor if you were dying?
But why does it upset you so that anyone believes or not???
Don’t you think the 700 people at Jonestown had “Faith”?
They believed and stepped right off the curb too.
I don’t mind people having Religion…
We have in the Constitution Freedom of Religion…
and that includes freedom FROM religion too.
One of the things I really hate is when the 7th day Adventists come to my door… these are the same people who fought and spent so much money to pass the Hatefull Prop 8.
I have vowed that the next time they come to my door and say:
“Have you heard the word of God today?”
I’m going to respond…
“Yes! I’ll get my Shotgun so you can ask him what he’s told me!”
after all, can’t I defend against them Trespassing on my life, my religious beliefs and my property???
Too bad I don’t own a gun, huh?
I keep saving, Peace - Live and let Live….
So What’s so wrong with that???
My Karma feed the Goats of your Brotherhood.
(Sounds nice., means nothing.)
Take care.
typo:
MAY Karma feed the Goats of your Brotherhood.
I think a guy being married to a bunch of women should be legal and called marriage. My wife could sure use a little help around the house.
GregandJeff, I wish you guys peace and joy in your lives.
You know, the truth is that most Christians do not hate gay men and women. There are those who don’t get it, really, with respect to what Christ actually taught… but that is not the heart of most of us. We are bent out of shape, in the end, because marriage is a symbol of something sacred for us. By appropriating the term, we feel you misuse what is, to us, something very precious and sacred. So, in the end, it is less about depriving you of your rights than it is about protecting the things we cherish so much, all of the sewage spilling numbskulls notwithstanding.
This is not one of those things that will probably be resolved by talking about it; my sense is that all the pro and con sides in the prop 8 debate will ever do is come to a place of mutual respect in our opposing viewpoints. Don’t get me wrong - that’s a great place to be, all things considered, and I would be glad of it… but I think this is right where it has to be, right now; the courts will decide this and we will all do just what you suggest; we will move on and hopefully we will learn to love and respect each other despite our obvious differences.
By the way, you have to know this: Jesus is not the one flipping you off in front of Saddleback church. I am again sorry for that. Many Christians have a hard time understanding what it is to witness their faith with sincerity; it either comes out compromising or it comes out cruel and condemning. Neither pole approaches the heart of God, which is loving yet uncompromising.
I hope you have received from my words an understanding that while I really wish you would not appropriate the term marriage, I also see beyond the issue. I know that you are people who love each other, who have hopes, and fears, and dreams, and passions, and talents, and gifts, and special secrets that make you unique and precious in God’s eyes. And, seeing that, I pray with sincerity that you will accept Christ some day. I’m not so cruel as to wish you ill, nor so crass as to consider you beneath me.
You know, in scripture there is a retelling of a time when Christ was confronted by a group of men intent on stoning to death a woman who had been accused of an adulterous affair. They did this to test him, knowing that this was the punishment demanded under Mosaic law. If he refused, then they could accuse Him of being a false teacher. If He acquiesced, then they could accuse Him of contradicting His own teachings. Yet, Christ’s answer was simple. He said “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” And, being convicted in their hearts, they all left, knowing that none could meet the test, leaving the woman alone with Christ.
Many people are familiar with this passage, but many people are not familiar with what happened after. Being alone with her, Christ inquired of her: “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?” And, knowing they had not, when she replied “No one, lord”, He said “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
This is important because when Christ said “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first” there was one present without sin: Christ. Yet Christ is also the one who chose not to cast a stone. His admonition was simple; I do not condemn you, only go and sin no more.
I say that as a roundabout way of acknowledging that it is not my place as a disciple of Christ to condemn you for your life and how you live it. I do have a responsibility to share with you the truth of God’s word as I see it, and that truth is that homosexuality is sin to God… as is lying, and cheating, and pridefulness, and selfishness, and cruelty, and a number of other things we are all guilty of. We all have sinned against God; we *all* fall short. Yet, confronted by sin in the example of the adulterous woman, Christ chose not to condemn, but to forgive and admonish. I’m sorry so many Christians condemn rather than show mercy and grace. We can speak our faith without tearing down.
Hey, I love you guys! I hope that you both will embrace the love of Christ in your lives one day; it all starts there.
I hope you find much peace in your lives - God bless you.
If Rick Warren wants to “soften” his image, he should start actively telling his congregation and the rest of the Prop 8 crowd to stop judging others and to leave their religious beliefs in their homes and churches instead of imposing them upon others with different values that are not based on mythology or superstition.
92618 says:
April 7, 2009 at 1:29 pmThe Bible says what it says. The thing about Christianity is this: you can either chose to believe the Word or not. That is your choice. God doesn’t require your love or your fellowship, He desires it.
—————————————————————————————
And exactly what choice wa soffered with Prop 8? In effect, it was “You must believe as we believe.”
Some choice. 92618 - if you voted for Prop 8, you’re a poster child for hypocrisy.
45yrsinoc, it’s obvious you didn’t read most of what I’ve said, here.
In your rush to characterize me in such a one dimensional manner, aren’t you also being a bit hypocritical? In one post you suggest that Rick Warren’s supporters should stop judging others (which you then proceed to do), and in the next, you attack me and call me the poster child for hypocrisy. So, in two posts wherein you attack people for being judgmental and hypocritical, you manage to pull of the same things yourself.
If I am the poster child for hypocrisy, wouldn’t that make YOU the lead spokesperson?
Let’s be honest: you know nothing of me, or my beliefs, or my thoughts, or my heart. In fact, you know so little about me that you could not possibly make the allegation you are making with any actual clarity or accuracy. What was it you did, then? What did your words amount to? They were nothing but a personal attack, and one that gives the impression that it comes from someone who would rather hurl names and allegations than engage in a meaningful dialogue.
I’m not sure which of us should really be on the receiving end of your diatribe; perhaps you ought to examine your own behavior.
That said, peace to you and yours.
Oh I’m sorry Ricky, we took the literal interpretation of your words against gay marriage just like you want us to literally interpret the bible, right?
Monday night on CNN’s Larry King Live, Pastor Rick Warren apologized for his support of Prop. 8, California’s voter-approved marriage protection amendment, saying he has “never been and never will be” an “anti-gay or anti-gay marriage activist.”
“During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement, never — never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop. 8 was going,” Warren told the CNN audience on Monday. “The week before the — the vote, somebody in my church said, ‘Pastor Rick, what — what do you think about this?’ And I sent a note to my own members that said, I actually believe that marriage is — really should be defined, that that definition should be — say between a man and a woman.”
However, just two weeks before the November 4 Prop. 8 vote, Pastor Warren issued a clear endorsement of the marriage amendment while speaking to church members. “We support Proposition 8 — and if you believe what the Bible says about marriage, you need to support Proposition 8,” he said.
This guy is a liar. He says he never supported Prop 8?!!!! WTF?!!! Anytime a “Christian” religious figure like this suddenly goes soft or against something that is so un-Christlike and so against the teaching of the Holy Bible it means he’s up to something. Whether it’s his personal life or his ambitions or fund raising, there is more to this story. What a loser! I hope all the sheep who attend Saddleback and stuck their neck out for Prop 8 shame this guy. Buyer’s remorse. Joker and turncoat. Shame on him. How dare he abandon a cause that so many in his congregation worked so hard for.
Oh, and it’s also amazing how this is not front page news on the Register along side the Adenhart tradgedy. This Warren is huge in OC, let alone the country. And this is a *major* development for people in OC and in his church. Register: Why are you burying this story and covering for him?!!
These discussions are great for discussing the hurts and bias. In the end, it is a matter of our beliefs and what our beliefs are based on. The below excerpt is from Saddleback to explain Rick Warren’s comments on the subject.
Throughout his pastoral ministry spanning nearly 30 years, Dr. Warren has remained committed to the biblical definition of marriage as between one man and one woman, for life — a position held by most fellow Evangelical pastors. He has further stressed that for 5,000 years, EVERY culture and EVERY religion has maintained this worldview.
When Dr. Warren told Larry King that he never campaigned for California’s Proposition 8, he was referring to not participating in the official two-year organized advocacy effort specific to the ballot initiative in that state, based on his focus and leadership on other compassion issues. Because he’s a pastor, not an activist, in response to inquiries from church members, he issued an email and video message to his congregation days before the election confirming where he and Saddleback Church stood on this issue.
During the King interview, Dr. Warren also referenced a letter of apology that he sent to gay leaders whom he knew personally. However, that mea culpa was not with respect to his statements or position on Proposition 8 nor the biblical worldview on marriage. Rather, he apologized for his comments in an earlier Beliefnet interview expressing his concern about expanding or redefining the definition of marriage beyond a husband-wife relationship, during which he unintentionally and regrettably gave the impression that consensual adult same sex relationships were equivalent to incest or pedophilia.
92618 says:
“Christ gives us the gift of salvation, but one cannot accept a gift without receiving the bearer of it. How can one receive a gift from someone you do not believe exists? Either you do not believe, and hence do not receive the gift, or you receive the gift and hence believe. One cannot receive a gift and then claim the sender was illusory.”
Gift: something that is voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation …a voluntary transfer of real or personal property without any consideration or without a valuable consideration …
The “gift” of salvation your Christ offers is neither without consideration nor a voluntary transfer since you must “receive” him, i.e., give faith preeminence over rational enquiry, prior to receiving his “gift.” Moreover, if you happen to reject his offer he puts on his god hat and threatens you with horrible punishment, i.e., burning in Hell for eternity. To me, this is little more than something a local mob boss might offer: a queer combination of bribery and extortion.
This isn’t just “our” fight!
I’m all ears if the gay marriage opponents AND THE CA SUPREME COURT can supply a viable and legitimate argument and detail specifically how any of their positions for one man and one woman marriage can be applied without infringing on these intersex individuals rights to privacy and liberty and freedom of choice.
Here are a couple links with a more precise discussion which highlights the heart of our debate regarding liberty and freedom in America and gender neutral marriage.
http://www.isna.org/node/670
http://www.isna.org/library/law/vilain_aaas_2005
Here’s a great excerpt:
“Significant minorities of individuals are left out of simple civil rights because they don’t fit established categories of sex. Intersexed people are hurt by arbitrary definitions of sex. As doctors, we have a responsibility to care for our patients in more ways than just drugs and surgery. Intersex patients are born with a disability that makes sexual intimacy and thus intimate life partnering difficult. If they do end up with a partner whom they wish to marry, that is a great success, and they should not be impeded by irrational laws about definitions of sex. After all, in many cases, we, as doctors have assigned their sex fairly arbitrarily.”
Personally, I don’t know of a more cogent discussion to illustrate to everyone how hollow the one man and one woman marriage stance truly is.
Pro8er arguments fail entirely when considering this issue in the context of universal freedoms and liberty as well as right to privacy.
I believe Rick Warren is sincerely trying to do the right thing and grow in his spirituality and will eventually back away from the Prop 8 crowd and embrace diversity, including gay and lesbians.
Meanwhile, I’m praying for Rick …
Jesus warns about persons like this(not necessarily Mr. Warren, he’s not as hostile as your Dobson and Phelps-type)…
“You will know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7.11)
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law” (Galatians 5:22-23)
Test your teachers and bishops, and compare them with these attributes. Legalism is very harsh and makes people miserable and unhappy(I know, I’ve been there. Its just a bunch of do this and do that). I then realized that he gave only two commandments as the equivalent/alternative to the 10 commandments. Love the Lord God and Love Mankind; have consideration and empathy for him. Christians shouldn’t have to keep the law, because they automatically do without even knowing it. It’s something you work on. Many people can claim to be Christian, but in name only. It’s sad, but true. The gates to hell are wide open, but the gates to heaven are not(they’re open, but not very wide).
Now I’ll shut my mouth
In Luke 17 in the New Testament, Jesus said that one of the big “signs” that will happen shortly before His return to earth as Judge will be a repeat of the “days of Lot” (see Genesis 19 for details). So gays are actually helping to fulfill this same worldwide “sign” (and making the Bible even more believable!) and thus hurrying up the return of the Judge! They are accomplishing what all of the Bible-thumpers couldn’t accomplish! Gays couldn’t have accomplished this by just coming out of closets into bedrooms. Instead, they invented new architecture - you know, closets opening on to Main Streets where little kids would be able to watch naked men having sex with each other at festivals in places like San Francisco (where their underground saint - San Andreas - may soon get a big jolt out of what’s going on over his head!). Thanks, gays, for figuring out how to bring back our resurrected Saviour even quicker!
Well, I wouldn’t necessarily “thank” them for that ; )