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Sheriff’s concealed gun policies draws Republican fire
March 27th, 2009, 6:00 am · 33 Comments · posted by NORBERTO SANTANA JR.
Sheriff Sandra Hutchens’ move to curtail the number of concealed weapons permits on the streets of Orange County is drawing more Republican fire.
Over at Red County blog, Central Committee member Allan Bartlett has penned a fascinating column on an upcoming discussion Apr. 4 at the local GOP headquarters about smacking Hutchens on the wrist for her approach to the issue.
And Republican heavy-hitter Mike Schroeder has launched the first volley in an expected legal attack on Hutchens after she sent him a letter advising him that his pistol-packing days are numbered.
In his letter, Schroeder tells the sheriff that she’s messing with the wrong Second Amendment supporter and sets up the groundwork for an interesting legal battle.
Schroeder notes that Hutchens does have virtually unrestricted ability to issue concealed weapons permits. But once they are issued, she just can’t take them away.
One thing to keep in mind. Dealing with Schroeder doesn’t just have legal consequences. The Republican king-maker is also known for getting involved in elections.
So keep an eye on this one…
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DENA BUNIS, Washington bureau chief, 202-628-6381 or dbunis@ocregister.com
BRIAN JOSEPH, Sacramento correspondent, 916-449-6046 or bjoseph@ocregister.com
JENNIFER MUIR, County government reporter, 714-796-7813 or jmuir@ocregister.com
JOEL WALSH, Washington bureau intern, 202-628-6381 or jwalsh@ocregister.com
MARTIN WISCKOL, Politics reporter, 714-285-2867 or mwisckol@ocregister.com twitter.com/MartinWisckol
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The ever so arrogant Schroeder…..He needs to read the law and the authority of a County Sheriff, not only the 2nd Amendment. Understand we now how armed police to handle crimes in cars, not horseback….Get over not being able to carry a concealed weapon in a civil society that has public servants able to protect you within minutes…I know things can happen very quickly within minutes as I’ve been there…That does not mean it is a valid reason to carry a firearm in public. Dial 9-1-1 it works!
Know Em All,
When seconds count, the cops are only minutes away. Think about that for a second.
Mike Schroeder is the poster child for who should not be packing a concealed weapon in pubic. Good for the Sheriff to crack down on Carona’s cronies!
Allan,
I expected that argument, as I stated, I know I’ve been there, but I still don’t want to be surrounded on the 405 freeway with armed citizens launching lead because someone cut them off. This is just a blow to Schroeder’s huge ego…Additionally, the Sheriff can dismiss him as a reserve deputy at any time without reason.
Use the Police to protect you in public, arm yourself within your home if you feel it’s necessary, pratice your quick draw in front of a mirror and pretend your Clint Eastwood, just stay the hell away from me.
Lotsa laughs in this story, Norberto ! “Heavy-hitter” ? “king-maker”? OC has a very few members of the state legislature (where they have no power), and a couple of US Representatives, one of whom distanced himself from the Lincoln Club years ago. The only “King” Schroeder had a hand in electing was Carona, and we all know how that turned out ! What’s with the puff-piece, dating his daughter?
There are very strict rules of when you can draw your gun. The hammer will come down hard if you draw it willy nilly. That is what the extensive training is for. 40 states are already shall issue states and there are very very few problems with permit holders. The stats have shown that CCW permits are just not abused. The bottonline is I trust my fellow law abiding citizens and the Sheriff does not.
Allan,
“I trust my fellow law abiding citizens”…..that’s because you’ve never been a cop on a Sunday evening when your “law abiding citizens” are sick of dealing with their wives the entire weekend, have a few beers and lose their mind….good luck obtaining a CCW.
Know Em ALL,
Sounds like you are a cop who hates his wife, drinks beer and loses his mind
The bottom line is that the Sheriff has the law on her side. If you don’t like the way she uses her disctetion then work towards changning the penal code. Attempting to bully her isn’t going to work.
The great dark lord (Schroeder) and this small band of special interest Republican cronies will not get anyone to capitualte. Unlike our previous sheriff, this one works with an idea of doing her job, not making friends and influencing people.
That CCW permit is a legal contract. More importantly in Mike’s CCW jacket at PSD is a CA-DOJ notification. “This individual meets the criteria for issuance of a ccw.” That say it was issued legally. Both Mike and Allan know this. They also know she is a RINO! Details to follow on that.
Your CCW is 811 when 911 shows up late.
There has been NO gun/unsafe incidents of a CCW holder in OC in recent decades, as even Hutchens has acknowledged. If there is widespread abuse and these people start going nuts on average citizens, then let’s discuss. Until then, there is no problem. It is simply a witch hunt. Not to mention all the stats showing more guns = less crime and all of that.
I think a lot of the gun happy people have missed the entire point of this excercise. The bottom line is, Carona issued CCW permits to people who were unqualified or more importantly couldn’t meet the expectations to carry said firearm simply because they gave him money for his campaign. From what I understand the Sheriff isn’t trying to take anything from anyone. Those of you that have your CCW taken away can simply re-apply and obtain a new CCW. She’s even gone as far as working something out with the DOJ so it would not show up negatively for the CCW holder. The bottom line is she inherited this mess that Carona made out the CCW process and to me it simply appears that she is trying to bring some integrity back to the process itself. I haven’t heard her say once that she wanted to permanently remove the permits from anyone. But, you have a lot of gun happy idiots out there that use the 2nd amend. as a shield. As a taxpaying and law abiding citizen I am happy that she has taken such an unpopular stand for the good of the people. And I would like to say, I am for citizens having guns to protect themselves but, I don’t want an idiot like Schroeder who is an angry, impulsive little man, carrying a gun. He is not mature enough to know what to do with it. I personally have been carrying a gun for a long time and am glad there are some checks and balances out there. If anyone could have a gun, especially in this nuthouse of a county just think of all the problems we would have.
I guess that Master Yi guy doesn’t count does he?
Seen lotsa dumb moves by CCW holders over the years, yes, in recent decades. Some walked because ONLY because they had a CCW and and the act was only dumb, others went to jail for criminal-dumb, including a death and a maiming in Silverado in the 1980s by a Gates CCW holder. Anyone with a reasonable IQ and some dexterity can pass the required CCW training. Unfortunately that doesn’t include a guarenty of sense.
LEGAL gun owners are NOT the problem, it’s the criminals (aka those that DO NOT care about the laws that you need to worry about. Criminals will and do carry guns.. GET THIS without “permits” all a CCW does, allows those that want to legally protect themselves to do so. Why do you think so many gang members live in Southern California, I bet it’s not because of the weather.. it’s because of STUPID POLITICIANS (such as this sheriff, and yes she’s a politician) that have messed up the state so bad that they, the criminals can get away with what they are doing.. Also, the 2nd amendment DOES APPLY in a case such as this..
The problem with OC is that we allow Republican heavy hitters run it without questioning their motives. We all cow tow to the Lincoln Club and their lemmings and just do what they want. These people intimidate lawmakers with threats and expect them keep quiet. How refreshing is it to have Sheriff Hutchings stand up to these thugs? Keep going Sheriff, you’ve got my support!
Ah, the old cowboys shooting each other on the freeway argument. How late-1980s of you. Welcome to 20 years later, after the failed experiment called Gun Control. Millions of people in 80% of the rest of the country CCW on a daily basis and they are not blowing each other away every time someone cuts them off. Same goes for the 45,000+ in CA that have CCWs.
Barry,
Only a fraction of gun involved incidents are in the newspaper/online/TV….You and others have no idea how many guns are out there with major incidents, and more aren’t needed….I know the response will be, but the law abiding citizens aren’t the problem….bull sh**…Remember the almighty, Master Yi, playing golf and not to milk that incident but there are many other situations involving guns and “good people” that lose it for a moment, just call
9-1-1…keep it simple
Allan Bartlett: Excellent point.
Know Em All: You make an invalid point. At least 40 states have “shall issue” laws and your fear mongering is not realized in those states.
Barry Badrinath: When an extremly out of the ordinary situation occurs such as the North Hollywood shootout,
politicians jump on the opportunity to make feel good laws and make it appear as though they are accomplishing something.
I have had a gun pointed at me from six feet away, and if I hadn’t diffused the situation verbally, I wouldn’t be typing this now. I wouldn’t doubt this person has killed someone else since then. But if I was carrying my own handgun, I know this person would not have killed anyone else - he would be dead.
Wait until you’re staring down the barrel and you don’t know how many seconds of life you have left. BTW, your life doesn’t flash before you as is common belief. You get overwhelmed with the sadness that you will never see your loved ones again.
Of all the things to go to battle over, this is really the worst fight Hutchens could pick. It is difficult to understand why she would have a problem with qualified and properly trained law abiding citizens having a CWW permit. I did 30 years as a street cop and supervisor. Never once did I see did a CCW permit holder abuse their privilege. Not saying it has never happened. I just never saw or heard of it. Hutches is needlessly making a lot of enemy’s.
Know Em All,
Do you carry off-duty? Why? You could just call 911 like the rest of us, right?
CCW works no matter what the politicians tell you. As an Arizona resident I can tell you that the law abiding citizens in California are just as worthy of legal concealed carry as my fellow Arizonians. Fact is most people would never carry a gun even if they could do so legally. It is a great responsibility and requires the right mindset. 99% of the population do not want to accept that responsibility.
Criminals on the other hand will do as they please. They will always carry and they like the fact that most of you Californians can not be legally armed.
Don’t believe me, ask John Lott.
Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, call for a pizza. See which one gets there first.
The fact is that you can’t count on police to be there to protect you when you need it. It’s naive to think that you always can.
AZ Cowboy,
Yes I have a CCW, but your wrong, I carry a gun very seldom.
AZCowboy: When I lived in AZ, the only places one couldn’t carry a gun were in Government buildings, banks and bars. Some bars had a “gun check” area much like a coat check area in posh eastern restaurants. Is that still the case? I moved from AZ to CA in ‘84.
Know Em All: Under what seldom circumstances do you carry your gun?
I have a CCW & carry 99% of the time. Examine all the mass killings recently. In some cases, one armed, properly trained person could have saved many lives. I’m not advocating any “Dirty Harry” like action. I simply talking about in the absence of law enforcement taking action in self defense and the defense of others. Case in point, the mall shooting in Salt Lake City. One armed off duty police officer engaged an active shooter in the mall. If not for the actions of this person, who knows how many would have died. Undoubtedly many.
I think the sheriff is picking the wrong issue to go to battle over in OC. She really needs to rethink her position. There is no risk to the public in issuing CCW’s to qualified, properly trained law abiding citizens. If she doesn’t, this could be a major issue in the next election.
Hondo, how many students would have been saved if students were permitted to carry on the Virginia Tech campus? My guess is most of them. The way I see it, the right to carry is our ONLY protection against wackos who want to kill themselves and take out as many innocent bystanders as they can. Law enforecement cannot possibly respond quickly enough to these kind of incidents.
Alterego55,
I’m not sure we need every student to be armed or every student wants to be armed. However, you point is well taken. Just one qualified properly trained armed citizen could have saved many lives if not all the lives that were lost. The same can be said for all the recent mass murders. I’m working on a post grad degree. You bet I carry when I attend classes. No one needs to now except me. No one is at risk except one who may cause harm to me or others. Whats sad is that even though I am fully qualified as well as being properly trained and licensed, I’m undoubtedly violating some school policy. Too bad.
Hey, “Digger” - looks like you didn’t do a good enough digging job. “Others include Carona’s former martial arts instructor, Raymond Yi, who was accused of flashing his reserve badge and a gun at a foursome playing in front of him on a San Bernardino County golf course. Yi was convicted earlier this year of making a criminal threat; he is seeking a new trial on the grounds that a courtroom bailiff improperly spoke with the jury about a gun used as evidence at trial.” from LA Times Article. Yi was not a CCW holder - he was a Reserve Sheriff. Can you get your facts straight instead of digging yourself a bigger hole? As your rights continue to get taken away, you will never have a need for a gun…until you really need one.
Hondo: I agree totally. No, I don’t think all students should have a CCW permit. Maybe one in fifty (just a guess at the number). One should only obtain a CCW if one desires to, and one can prove physical and mental fitness, and if one can prove one’s responsibility to do so.
If one in fifty qualified for CCW in Virginia, statistically the second classroom he walked into would have been his last. And 25 young individuals would not be dead and their parents would have had a profoundly better chance of becoming grandparents.
In CA, probably one in 10,000 (guessing at the numbers again) qualifies. Why don’t our politicians get it that states with a “shall carry” law do not experience the issues the anti-gun fear mongerers warn us about?
MLK,
Foe someone who has been carrying a gun for a long time you are woefully misinformed about some of the issues surrounding the Appointed Sheriff’s actions.
Your assertion that Carona handed out CCW’s to contributors seems to imply that the people losing their permits were in that category. The record clearly debunks this myth. The majority of those losing their permits under the Appointed Sheriff are losing them because the Appointed Sheriff does not believe in issuing permits to the broadest category of Orange County citizens that meet the requirements for doing so. If Carona had improperly established a set of criteria for issuance, the DOJ would have simply denied the permit issuance and overridden his decision.
Those that are losing their permits can not simply re-apply. The Appointed Sheriff has decided to change the rules in the middle of the game and void the contract the County has with these individuals. Once you are denied, it is after you have provided all of the good cause information you have. What else are you going to give her on your new application that you didn’t give her when she asked for additional information? Nothing; unless you are just dense to begin with, and then I agree that you should not have a permit.
Then, she asks the DOJ to modify their system to support her illegal confiscation of permits that were appropriately and legally issued. Of course the DOJ is going to support her, you do know who is in charge of the DOJ, don’t you? Yes, none other than former Governor Moonbeam himself, Jerry Brown. He is laughing his butt off that the newly Appointed Sheriff in Orange County is taking away the permits from law abiding citizens. That is his favorite activity!
The Appointed Sheriff did not inherit a CCW mess from Carona. That has already been established by all five of the members of the Board of Supervisors. This was not a problem that needed a solution; it is her own personal bias against gun owners and evidence of her elitist Los Angeles Law Enforcement Anti Gun upbringing.
As for using the 2nd Amendment as a shield, that is irrelevant as this is not a 2nd Amendment issue unless and until the Heller decision is broadened to include the right to carry a CONCEALED firearm, which it clearly is not yet in California (or anywhere else for that matter.)
As for Schroeder’s ability to carry a concealed firearm, all I can say is that once YOU start deciding who can and can not carry a firearm for self defense because you may or may not like them, you start doing exactly what you accuse Carona of doing. How corrupt are you?
Any person who does not have any criminal convictions, or psychological instability or limitations, should be able to carry a weapon, as long as they continue to obey the law either while carrying the weapon or not. I should not be punished because some idiot violates the gun laws. The law abiding citizens should be rewarded for their reserve and common sense, by being issued a ccw at their request, regardless of good cause or not. That is the reward for obeying the law for decades.