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Pastor Rick Warren tries to clarify position on gay marriage
December 23rd, 2008, 12:37 pm · 473 Comments · posted by Martin Wisckol, Politics reporter
Saddleback Church Pastor Rick Warren, who became the subject of controversy when Barack Obama named him to give the inauguration’s invocation, posted a video yesterday in which he says he’s been misrepresented as equating gays with pedophiles, polygamists and incestuous siblings.
The attack on him arose from a video interview on beliefnet.com, conducted in the wake of Proposition 8. Here’s what the megachurch leader and best-selling author said there:
“I’m opposed to having a brother and sister together and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to having an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.”
The interviewer then asks, “Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
“Oh, I do,” Warren responds.
However, in the video Warren posted yesterday, he says:
“I’ve in no way ever taught that homosexuality is the same thing as a forced relationship between an adult and a child, or between siblings. I’m not opposed to gays having their partnership. I’m opposed to gays using the term marriage for their relationship….
“While I believe the gay view of sexuality is contrary to God’s word, I do believe that God gives us free choice. And he gives us the choice to obey his word or to disobey it.”
Warren also takes the media to task for contributing to a misunderstanding, saying, “I’ve never seen an in-print article that got everything right.”
Well, now you have both video interviews, so judge for yourself.
Thanks to Chris Prevatt at TheLiberalOC.com for the heads up on the latest video.
Related stories:
Saddleback pastor says it took courage for Obama to invite him
Gay reaction to Warren inaugural pick not universal
Legal expert: Brown’s decision could help Prop. 8 defense
Prop. 8 backers tout margin of victory
‘Day without a Gay’ fizzles
Gay marriage advocates bristle at religion’s role in Prop. 8 win
Evangelical Christians led the way to Prop. 8’s victory
Lawsuit to overturn Prop. 8 may face uphill battle
“Tries”? I thought he did just fine. The key word, of course, is “forced” relationships. That’s next, though, once NAMBLA starts using all of the same-sex marriage arguments. It’s “wrong” to stop LOVE!!!
Funny how Martini Wisckol (OC Register Politics “reporter”) doesn’t phrase it as Barack Obama aroused controversy when he named Saddleback Church Pastor Rich [sic] Warren to give the invocation ; )
Thought the bible taught us not to judge others, Pastor Warren? Guess that rule doesn’t apply to you?
BTW: God gives us free choice to murder too. If you disobey His word on that, however, you go to jail (unless you are a “mother” getting rid of a “parasite”).
Stephen:
The righteous man judges ALL things (look it up, if you don’t believe me). I’m sure it stings, but that is not the same as simply stating GOD’S WORD. Besides, I thought your side said there’s no problem with free expression of religion?
back peddling aren’t we Rick Warren? anything to stay in the lime light?
Don’t you just love the church?
God will give you the “choice” to obey him or not. Or course, if you “choose” not to, you get to fry in a lava lake for eternity!
LOL. What a fantastic “choice”.
Sounds like a dictator. Either “choose” to obey me or I kill you and your whole family.
Pastor Warren needs to be educated. The sanctity of marriage allows for adultery, abuse in many situations. I think we need to pass a law to where straight couples need to pass a test similiar to an IQ test to get married. I guarantee that far lesser marriages would be performed. Then perhaps a chip should be implanted into these yahoo straight people that have no business getting married and procreate. By the way Pastor Warren, when it comes to those gay couples who are involved in giving $$ to your church, I’m sure your political tune changes! My God teaches love and acceptance. You obviously see yourself as God, one who can judge others.
Apparently Rick Warren has no problem with bearing false witness.
lol all you wacky religious people!
christine:
What part of “forced” relationships are you having trouble understanding. Maybe that’s why you think the way you do. I’ve looked at both clips and there’s nothing inconsistent between them.
“I’m opposed to gays using the term marriage for their relationship….”
the way to resolve this issue is to remove all the legal rights and government entitlements that goes along with marriage.
LizardOC:
Perhaps you would like to share with the class what you think Pastor Rick (or as Martini likes to refer to him Pa$tor Rich) lied about?
Jake - Touche on my wording about who aroused the controversy. Thanks for pointing that out. You’re right, and I’m going to see if I can word that more accurately.
Warren:
Yet another impact that same-sex marriage would have on the rest of us ; )
Martini:
You’re welcome.
Craig:
Your “God” teaches love and acceptance of adultery? How about acceptance of child abuse or polygamy? Which “God” is that?
JakeD, maybe you should tell everyone here up front that you favor the illegalization of all extra-marital sex. I think it would help people understand where you’re coming from.
NAMBLA? Isn’t that the National Assembly of Marlon Brando Look Alikes? Sidenote: I think I may get married but before I do I am going to allow the homosexual community to vote on it first. That way they can’t shove in my face “When do I get to vote on YOUR marriage?” Once they vote I will count them and then overturn them. Put out their fire and they can’t burn you with it.
LizardOC:
Just as soon as you answer my question to you above.
HBrider:
No, I was referring to the North America Man Boy Love Assoc.
Warren is a hack who teaches intollerance.
For the record, I am not equating homosexuality with murder.
Not all marriages are “sanctified.” It can only be when and if the couple are believers. Other than that, it’s just a marriage. Aside from that, marriage does NOT “allow for” abuse or adultery. People choose to harm their loved ones of their own choice. That has nothing to do with marriage as an institution being wrong. WTF?
These crazy religious wackos make me laugh.
Interesting to see a pastor flip-flop just like a politician.
Oh, Jake, are you really going to try to make the case that Warren’s second statement doesn’t completely contradict the spirit of his first? Are you seriously going to contend that the presence of the word “forced” makes all the difference? That reeks of desperation.
Jake D,
Can you help me out? As a straight guy I don’t see how same-sex marriage has any impact on my life now or in the future. I’ve been trying to figure out a way to be OK with not giving equal rights to a minority group. Seems like you’ve got the answers.
It looks like Pa$$tor Ricky has removed his anti-gay bigotry from his website.
http://www.americablog.com/2008/12/rick-warren-pulls-anti-gay-language.html
Does he really think people will forget about this and let him neatly sweep his idiocy under the rug?
What I am oposed to is a group of people impossing their values and beliefs upon the rest of us and taking us to court if we disagree with them. What Iam oposed to is a group of people changing the meaning of words to suit their meaning and forceing it upon the rest of us in court. What Iam oposed to is somone choicing a life style that is dangerous to their health and demanding the rest of us to pay for it. I could go on but lets just call this what it is,”fascism. I challenge anyone to find a country that took on the Homosexual life style and didn’t distroy themselves with it. Look at Rome.
Bob Kehl
As I said, there’s no contradiction if you simply realize that God’s Word is eternal and man’s laws are not. There’s no “flip-flop”. Next canard?
Mensarino—as you may have also heard, Saddleback Church hurriedly changed its website yesterday to remove some of the most blatantly anti-gay language. (For example, the statement that “unrepentant homosexuals” would not be welcomed as members of the congregation has been deep-sixed.)
I take this to mean either that Saddleback is now welcoming and accepting of out gays and lesbians, or that Rick Warren doesn’t have the guts to stand by his convictions when the heat is on.
Badwolf beat me to it!
I just checked and “unrepentant homosexuals cannot be members” is still on the web site. Unrepentant heterosexuals can’t be members either. Look up the word “fellowship” in a Bible dictionary someday, people.
Jake, Gods law it eternal huh? Then why don’t you obey any of the following?
-stoning heretics and virgins
-murdering those who work on the sabbath
-murdering children that talk back
-murdering homosexuals and adulterers
It seems you have a lot of work to do
badwolf:
First of all, “murder” is not allowed, period (Gen. 9:6). Second, no one stoned virgins for remaining chaste. Keep in mind that Old Testament ceremonial law was fulfilled — and therefore remains eternal — through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross, so that not one iota of that law would be considered discarded (I will double-check that cite). I can explain “Trinty” next, if you want?
P.S. capital punishment is not “murder” (legally or Biblically).
What kind of Pastro would Rick Warren be if he contradicted the words of the bible? Everyone against prop 8 is so quick to judge with such a defensive attitude. You all stand strongly behind your beliefs and without any true justification, you expect everyone to stop supporting what they believe in. Why is it so hard to accept that more people support one decision? Prop 8 passing never indicated that Gay is unaccepted just that Gay is different which it is…
Jake—As long as you are going to use a boogeyman in the sky as your ultimate justification when so many do not accept his primacy or even his existence makes common ground discussions impossible.
Interesting that so many within your own fold do not subscribe to your view on this issue.
Religious wackos still make me laugh.
I propose the following proposition for 2010:
-stoning heretics and virgins
-murdering those who work on the sabbath
-murdering children that talk back
-murdering homosexuals and adulterers
We can add selling daughters into slavery.
Sadly it would pass!!!!
I’m planning on getting out of here. This country is on the way down. In 50 years, this will be like the middle east without oil
Oh Jake please, I have read the vacuous bronze age text you call the Bible, and you are required by your God to kill those of different faiths, PERIOD. Why do you not obey your god?
See Dueteronomy 13:6 if you need a refresher.
For an interesting take on Pa$$$$tor Warren, check out this article by Christopher Hitchens
http://www.slate.com/id/2207148/
Brennas got the right idea for justifying discrimination… its “different”
Carlos:
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
badwolf:
Duet. 13:6 does not require Christians to kill those of other faiths.
Pastor Goatie needs to get a life.
Well it starts at 13-6 and ends at 13:9. Here it is -
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
NOW, ANSWER THE QUESTION! That text is clear as day as to what your god requires of you.
I ate some shrimp today….when should I schedule my stoning?
The Hitchens essay on Slate should be requred reading for all who are inclined to agree with Warren.
Thanks, badwolf.
I already answered the question. My “God” (Jesus Christ) does not require Christians to kill those of other faiths. Perhaps you are thinking of Allah?
JakeD - I’m Jewish. Where do you want to meet for my stoning?
You are a coward Jake. The text is clearly laid out right above and you won’t admit that you ignore it. Truly pathetic and dishonest
badwolf—People like jake are the equivalent of intellectual vampires who cannot abide the light of facts or reason and they constantly get caught up in defending the contradictions within their fairy tales they hold so dear.
Keep the pressure on, it’s a plasure to behold.
Politicians, pastors and others may flip flop, (though I don’t believe Warren is, he reiterated that gay sex and “marriage” is wrong in God’s Word), BUT GOD IS ALWAYS THE SAME ! And His word does not change, only the way people want to twist it changes. God loves every human, and yes we each have the choice to follow Him and inherit all that is good, or walk away from Him, thereby walking AWAY from everything that is good. If you disown a parent, you forfeit any inheritance right? Same goes with God. He is not an evil dictator that wants to fry you if you don’t obey. It is simply Reality that with God is all goodness, and without Him is nothing good at all. His Gift is Free and simple, follow Him through accepting His Son Jesus, who paid for all sin for all time, and inherit Life with God forever.
This pastor is a glutton - he has a gut.
Let’s stone him!
YAY!
*throws confetti*
Maybe I am not explaining myself clearly. The New Testament makes it clear that Christians are not to kill those of other faiths. I am commanded to love you and do good for you, even if you are my enemy. Seriously, what part of Deut. 13:6 do you think trumps that?
I follow the Old Testament. JakeD - where should my stoning take place?
Fab5:
No where, because Jesus Christ took on your sins too.
JakeD how would granting equal rights to gays to marry impact you?
Oh.jake, but you embrace the entire bible, not just the new testament.If not, why not just print half the bible?
Why the dichotomy?
You would rather pick and choose what support your argument and minimize those that make you look extreme….intellectually dshonest.
Well Jake that’s what those of us that live are lives based on reason and facts like to call a CONTRADICTION. If you have bothered to read the bronze age fairy tale you hold so dearly and analyze it critically , you will discover that it is one of hundreds of these contradictions.
Makes you wonder if the whole thing isn’t made up.
As someone who has attended Saddleback for almost 15 years, I can tell you as a fact that most of you are way off target about Rick Warren. He has always felt that homosexuality is wrong as the Bible says. He has not changed his position on that. He does not believe the Bible is a book you “pick & choose” which parts you will follow. At the same time, he has always welcomed gays/lesbians to attend Saddleback along with anyone else. He does not discriminate based on beliefs, sexual orientation or anything else. It is real easy to jump on the band wagon and bash people when everyone else is. How many of you bashing him have every gone and attended even one service at Saddleback. There are so many wonderful things being done at that church that are making a difference in the world. There are not many people who have given as much money or their time to the area of caring for people inflicted with AIDS as Rick Warren has. And to all of you peope out there talking about it being about the all mighty dollar, Rick Warren gives away 90% of what he earns from his books and takes no salary from the church. How many of you would do the same if you were in the same position? How about instead of bashing Rick Warren you spend alittle of that time learning the facts or even, God forbid, go out and volunteer your time actually doing something constructive in the world.
Religious wackos like Jake D make me laugh.
mensarino , intellectual vampire! I love it! My new word of the week, thanks haha
Cultures that were putrid with infant sacrifice and other demented practices were judged and punished/killed via God’s command to Israel to battle with them and destroy them from polluting the earth any further. Since Jesus came and paid for all sin, no follower of God is commanded to take any such actions. Jesus said the last word on sin, and when He is ready, He will take the final action against sin. There is a difference in God’s plan between the time before and after Christ’s death and resurrection. On this and other topics, READ THE BIBLE and find out for yourself what God and His plan is about before you make ignorant comments about things you know little to nothing about.
yes, GOD gaves us free choice. have no doubt that what ever the choices we made there are consequences. We should never never judge anyone. Gay or Lesbian if they decided to be together, let them. (our consequences await for all of us.)based on our choices. if a person died from cancer due to smoking i don’t feel the lost, but feel sorry for the decision they made that lead them to such a death. I voted yes on prop 8 ( PREVERSE THE FOUNDATION OF MARRIAGE )WHICH = MAN + WOMAN
Of course Warren gives a big waiver to those that commit adultery, or divorce. We all know what the Bible says about those sins. Divorce is a CHOICE. Warren says divorce poses a bigger threat to marriage than gay marriage. Of course the adulterers and divorcers are not kicked out are they? They’re not told “God created Adam and Eve, NOT , “Adam and Eve and then Cindy” “Love the sinner hate the sin?” Ha! Nope, they are given waivers. Wouldn’t want to dry up the ol’ collection basket. Just get the divorce, a choice, then come back to church and tell God your sorry! Presto change-o, welcome aboard Christian. Just issue a “Get Out Of Sin Free ” card. Tell us what JESUS says about divorce and remarriage. What other sinners are refused membership into this “house” of “God”? Thank you God for allowing this church to throw stones. “He who is without the sin of homosexuality may cast the first stone. He who is with sin get a big rock and chuck it at the gays.”
Looks like Pastor Goatie took on the sins of a few other gluttons.
Warren:
Your first post mentioned just one of the horrible possibilities down the line. And, that’s not even the “worst-case” secular scenario. The most immediate and likely impact, however, would be that public school children (without the consent of their parents) will be indoctrinated that same-sex marriage is OK. Not a great idea given how impressionable kindergarteners are.
You are very welcome,badwolf.Keep up the good work.
Fab5 (et al):
I still love you (in the non-homosexual way, of course ; )
Seems like JakeD is taking a stoning via the internet.
Notice how jake attempts to change the topic when cornered by his own illogic?
JakeD - Please tell us why telling children about same-sex marriage is so horrible? I’m a kindergarten teacher and I’m curious to hear your answer.
Without the Old Testament, there would be no context for the sacrifice on the Cross. People would say silly things like “taking a stoning via the internet”.
mensarino:
You have to first point out such “illogic”.
Fab5:
Same reason we don’t show 1st graders pornographic movies. An authority figure, like a school teacher, saying something is acceptable sticks with many young kids.
Fairy tales do not constitute hard data——-use some common reference points that do not relate to religion.
JakeD, the New Testament says a number of things that I should think would give you pause; here are two to get us started:
“When Jesus heard this, he said to him, You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’” –Luke 18:22
(So? Have you sold all your possessions?)
“Beware of the teachers of the law . . . They devour your widows’ houses . . . Such men will be punished severely.” –Luke 20:46-47
(Uh-oh. Maybe you shouldn’t be so proud of that law degree!)
BTW: you are a shrimp-eating, Jewish school-teacher who otherwise follows the Old Testament?
Are kindergarten teachers teaching their students about the sin of divorce and remarriage?
Fab5 - unfortunately, it’s the same religious wackos that have a stranglehold in every part of the government. Don’t forget Bush saying, ‘the jury is still out on evolution”.
LizardOC:
Like I said, answer my question to you above, and I will be more than happy to answer your questions to me.
Oh, here, one more:
“Woe unto you, lawyers! For ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.” –Luke 11:52
He’s a lawyer?
Probably liberty christian or some other religious institution.
How could a lawyer keep posting with so little regard for demonstrable facts?
Jake,
You are more then welcom eto come to SBVCC and express your feelings.
Jake, I did answer you. Rick Warren’s second statement clearly contradicts the spirit of his first.
Your turn!
0_o
isn’t it odd that most people who are opposed to gay people and gay marriage always bring up the sex act of gay people.
They ALWAYS focus on the sex.
And why do they do that?
Because there aren’t any statistics that PROVE that gay contribute to the downfall of society, such as crime, joblessness, etc.
So I go back to the age old theory is that the people that are so homophobic and opposed to gays are usually gay themselves are have denied themselves by admitting that they are attracted to the same sex.
JakeD - So…you’re saying that being gay (and loving someone unconditionally) is the same as a pornographic movie? That doesn’t make sense. Again, you still haven’t explained why homosexuality is wrong. You say it’s in the bible, but not everyone follows your bible.
Young children are so full of love and acceptance of others. So, based on your logic, if we teach them that homosexuality is wrong, we are teaching them to hate and not accept others.
haha there is no way Jake is a lawyer. Bible mills pumping out fake PHD’s don’t count as real degrees.
A few months ago I got a pastors license through the mail for ten bucks. Anyone need me to do their wedding? I promise it will be interesting haha
Keep fighting the good fight Jake D. Pray and God will give you the right words. People like these don’t realize or won’t admit that they are championing an “anything goes” world, without God, rules, or morals, where anyone can take anything from them and do anything to them because it is there “lifestyle” preference. Except when it actually happens to them personally, then they want their “rights.” How would they like to be open to being raped today walking down the street because that’s someone’s “sexual preference,” or have their home and possessions taken with no protection from the Law? Our very lives are as good as they are because of our belief that we are “endowed with inalienable rights by Our Creator.” If not, watch your back, because all Hell will break loose and you will have no one to help or defend you.
Did your wife take over for you,jake?
Sodom and Gomorrah, and the lost tribes of Israel, are excellent examples of deprecated moral values leading to the destruction of societies.
KVU:
LMAO a little freudian slip?
“PREVERSE THE FOUNDATION OF MARRIAGE )WHICH = MAN + WOMAN”
HAHAH
Yep, straight marriage is just as horrible as gay marriage.
God has sent, through his prophets, commandments that are best for the people they were given to to help them return to him. As our society has matured the brutal nature of the commandments was significantly toned down because it would not be of the greatest benefit to the people. Christ set a higher law for the people to follow. Did God change? NO. The people changed. As a society we all know how to be better and kinder people.
Having said that, I feel it is contrary to the eternal laws of God and Nature to condone same gender marriage.
Legalizing same Sex marriages will distroy the institution of marriage in this country just like it is doing in the netherlands.
God created “Adam and Eve,” NOT “Adam and Eve enjoying a tasty shrimp dinner at Red Lobster.”
Religious wackos still make me laugh.
“How would they like to be open to being raped today walking down the street because that’s someone’s “sexual preference,” or have their home and possessions taken with no protection from the Law?”
I like how wackos like to blow everything out of proportion.
Well, follower of jesus (hey that’s my gardeners name!). You’ve convinced me!
Seriously do you morons just copy and paste the same BS into every blog? Do you think one person has ever found it sooo profound as to throw up there hands in praise of your magic sky daddy?
Kudos to all of you educated skeptics on here, my cold atheist heart has warmed up reading all your intelligent comments.
badwolf says:
“you are required by your God to kill those of different faiths, PERIOD”
Deuteronomy 13:6 doesn’t say to kill people of other faiths. It’s talking about false prophets within the Jewish community that led people astray.
And yes, the words of Jesus trump Mosaic Law. The Bible is a collection of 66 books and they need to taken in their proper context.
“Love your neighbor as yourself”
The question I have for pro 8ters is this. If you feel teaching children about gays being married in schools is a bad thing, but you support domestic partnerships. How do you teach children about what a domestic partnership is without using the word marriage?
There will be children in schools in CA that have two parents of the same sex.
Furthermore, how do you propose you teach kids about adults that live together but are not married?
BobJ (fromway up the page, sorry):
1) Rick Warren’s AIDS ministries are fine, but let’s recall that Warren did not care about AIDS until his wife called his attention to the children dying of the disease in Africa. When it was “just a gay disease,” he wasn’t interested. And he continues to push an abstinence-only approach that has been demonstrated as ineffective. His AIDS work does not compensate for the other damage he’s done.
2) If I made a gazillion dollars a year, I’d be happy to give away 90% of my earnings, too.
3) My girlfriend and I, in the spirit of understanding and bread-breaking, went to Saddleback last week hoping to meet some people and perhaps begin to forge some mutually productive connections. We had small “Marriage Equality” pins on our jackets but otherwise did not distinguish ourselves as lesbians in any way, and we were smiling, friendly, and obviously new to the place.
Exactly ONE person spoke to us; hundreds ignored us. Two women at an information table answered our questions, then pointed, snickered, and made faces as we walked away. The people in the car behind us as we left made a big, angry show of their disapproval for our Obama and “No on 8″ bumper stickers (or maybe it was the “Love Thy Neighbor” sticker they objected to?).
Yeah—real welcoming place you’ve got there.
Liar Loan apparently doesn’t like us Jews either. No wonder there are so few here.
hey evangelicals, please take the time to read this thoughtful blog post about how we are being heard:
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-do-gays-and-lesbians-hear-test
a lot of in house work urgently needs to be done before one more peep is made in these ongoing “culture wars”
Badwolf,
your cold atheist heart should read Anthony Flews’ “There is a God”. Anthony Flew was Britans most notorious atheist. He was a Professor of Philosophy at Keele and Oxford. in the 50’s he wrote “The Presumption of Atheism”. However, being educated he swore to follow the Soccratic admonition to “Follow Truth no matter where it may lead”. He did and some 50 years late it lead him to decide that there is indeed a Creator. He is not a Christian but could be called a Deist. Whos is the educated one?
Reading Lizard’s post makes me want to RUN down to Saddleback!
YAY! I can’t wait to be treated the same way. It sounds so God-like!
I love that the google ads have 2 hot latinos in suits snuggled up.
I wonder how many bible humpers are freaking out at it.
Oh great, now we have a father geoff weighing in on homosexuality.How ironic is that?
Man, I would hate to be a gay Jew eating shrimp…I might get stoned by the h8aters!
mensarino Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Oh great, now we have a father geoff weighing in on homosexuality.How ironic is that?
LOL
I alaways thought the spelling of Geoff was kinda gay
LizardOC
How in the world can you say that abstinence is not effective in fighting AIDS and all of the the other STDs? The only other way to get it would be blood transfusions, needle sharing, and being born to a mother with AIDS. Abstinense is the only way to combat STDs everything else comes up short. Maybe I just did not understand the Surgeon General when he said abstinence was the only effective method.
Divorce will one day lead to people being allowed to marry animals!
Jake, sex education isn’t taught to kindergarteners. Regardless if gays are allowed to marry or not, in today’s age of information children will be exposed to the homosexuality in a positive light a lot sooner than they were in the past.
Wake up! Gays are no longer living in the closest. Prop 8 has brought more attention to the Gay movement than anything that I can recall. Times are changing and your way of thinking is becoming dated. Just look at the percentage of young votes who voted no on 8. A change is going to come and I hope it is within your life time.
Messianic Jews also believe the Jesus fulfilled the Mosiac law.
Liar Loan, so your saying your god was WRONG in the old testament? What blasphemy!
The Orange County Register just can’t accept that prop 8 passed and that some people have faith in Jesus.
Fathergeoff, studies from Africa (and elsewhere) show conclusively that AIDS-fighting programs that include education about responsible contraception–along with encouragement of abstinence–are FAR more successful than those that insist on abstinence alone.
Warren is choosing ideology over proven life-saving results.
Jake is missing in action.Guess he got “raptured” away.
there’s a lot of confusion about the applicability of the Mosaic code to other societies. The problem is that the civil laws of Israel were not a generic body of municipal codes like we have. They were a theocratic expression of how a holy and righteous God would dwell in the midst of a sinful people. Yes, all kinds of seeming inconsequential acts received harsh penalties. No, God does not change in his holy requirements, but that era of a geo-political entity being bound to a national righteousness ritually, morally, and civilly, has ended since its purposes were fufilled.
What was going on was that all kinds of human acts would threaten to defile the land. The land must be a holy realm which means a holy (set apart) people must dwell in order for there to be a special glory presence of a holy God in their midst.
But the Law, in that national covenant expression, was there to highlight the utter sinfulness of all humanity through its various purity requirements (ceremonial and moral) and stipulations addressing things down to the very details of life.
So before anyone goes throwing around proof texts about this or that penalty for specific sins, realize that its historical context limits its direct applicability.
Obviously, there is not one shred of evidence that the early apostolic Christian church launched campaigns to reform the Roman empire to a moral standard found in the Mosaic Law. The early Church worked to establish a new society within the boundaries of its baptized communities, where the concern is how individuals stand and conduct themselves before God in the heavenly courts not the earthly courts.
just some thoughts
I wonder if Saddleback is allowing and officiating the weddings of divorced women at their church.
I’m pretty sure its an abomination.
badwolf-
Where did I say that?
Jesus is a myth.
Religion is for the weak.
Wake up people.
LizardOC speaks the truth. Also it is important to note the disastrous effect the Catholic church has on the entire AIDS debacle in Africa. The church claims that American condom manufacturers purposely infect the condoms with AIDS or poke holes in them to infect Africans. An absolutely heinous crime.
The blood of millions of dead Africans is all over the hands of the Catholic church.
Jake is voting NO on the latino guys wedding ad
you said the word of Jesus trumps Mosaic law. Hence god must have been wrong, or possibly not of sufficient omniscience to foresee the situation?
I think my first Rap album will be called America: A Bomb Nation.
Joe—good post but who is to say that moral laws you believe in now don’t also have “historical context limits” to their applicability.
I am old enough to remember when it was a mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays in the catholic faith and that changed.
kingo has a right to an opinion and as do I - Gays also feel that they have every have a right to sex in a public restroom as well. AIDs is spread that way and if it hadn’t been for this deadly disease, we wouldn’t be seeing all the hoopla about perverts feeling they are a normal part of society. It ain’t normal dude, no matter how you cut it! I’m not talking about a religious thing, I’m just saying that you gay dudes look at something that we “homophobes” see as an exit only!
old dude, thanks for adding the uneducated octogenarian vote, it was clearly lacking here.
Oh come on Old dude…are you telling me you have never gone for door #2 with any of your lady friends?
Which was illegal at one time even though both were of the same sex. That and the other thing that most men really enjoy.
SK08:
Review my posts to Warren on this thread (as well as my posts on the Prop. 8 thread), and let me know if you still need more examples of potential harm from same-sex marriages.
LizardOC:
That’s not Rick Warren bearing false witness (sorry you stood out with your “No on 8″ sticker though). Nonetheless, while this thread is not about the Bible, per se, I would be happy to address the issues you brought up. Lawyers, rich people, and young rulers definitely have the deck stacked against them, spiritually, but I trust some still make it to Heaven (Abe Lincoln, for instance). I have not sold all my possessions because I have a family and “love of money” is not a problem for me (unlike the person Jesus was referring to in Luke 18:22). For the record, I never devoured any widow’s house.
Back on topic, I am indeed making the case that Warren’s second statement doesn’t completely contradict the literal meaning (or even “spirit”) of his first. I would also point out that bearing false witness requires a LIE UNDER OATH. Even if you think he’s lying, it wasn’t under oath. And, finally, I am seriously contending that the presence of the word “forced” makes quite a bit of difference. That’s not desperation. That is simply mainstream Protestant belief.
As for me trying to outlaw pre-marital sex, not exactly — because I accept the reality of a fallen world but the context on that other was about “worst-case” scenarios — there’s no way we are ever going to outlaw all sex outside of marriage if we can’t even make the same-sex marriage ban stick. Here’s the whole quote:
“I am not suggesting that we outlaw all non-procreative sex — just sex outside of marriage — that would be much better than [LizardOC's suggestion] encouraging EVERY woman to give lesbianism a try. As for your “mental health” you are fooling yourself if you think sex outside of marriage is the answer.” Whew! I think that covers everything you asked.
Next canard?
The”Wisdom”:
We discriminate all the time (even legally, unless you want to repeal laws against incest, polygamy, beastiality, etc.?).
follower of christ:
Thanks.
BobJ and Liar Loan:
I appreciate the effort, but as you can see, there’s no reaching some people. For instance …
Love the Hypocrite:
Warren does NOT give a big waiver to those that commit adultery or divorce — in fact, you cannot be on staff at Saddleback Church during that — unrepentant heterosexuals are treated exactly the same as unrepentant homosexuals.
mensarino and badwolf:
I was (obviously) typing above. Also, I graduated at the top of my class from Stanford Law School. How about you two?
joe branca:
I will not sugar coat SIN.
Warren:
Perhaps you missed that field trip the kindergarten class took right before Prop. 8 passed?
LizardOC:
1) what does it matter that he didn’t “care” about AIDS until his wife called his attention to it. Are you now being unforgiving towards other people? Isn’t that what you are speaking out about? The fact is that he is doing something about. Here is a man who is holding to his beliefs yet at the same time is able to be compassionate enough to help out people he doesn’t necessarily agree with. How many of us can say the same thing? To put it in perspective for you - that would be like you tithing to his church even though you don’t agree with him. Are you willing to do that? Think about it.
2). Easy to say “if I was making a gazillion dollars………..” You might give away alot of money but 90%? I don’t think there are may people in this world (myself included) who would do that. I would like to think I would but when push came to shove, who knows
3). If that is what truly happened at church last weekend, I am sorry. That is not what Saddelack stands for and anyone who treated you like that is not a reflection of what the church teaches. With so many people, there are always going to be bad apples. Did you make any other efforts to talk to anyone else? Is it right to be mad because no one approached you. Do you come home from shopping at the mall pissed off that no one talked to you. Alot of people hate Christians because they feel they approach them too much. How does anyone at Saddleback know you are new there? What does “obviously new to the place” mean? I challenge you to try it again and be more outgoing. The actions you experienced are not a product of the church but a product of what we have become as a society.
Ah Jake….you should try some sugar coated sin. It is a bit like a churro…but the enjoyment lasts longer.
Old Dude just proved my point about the SEX thing. See my post at 2:39pm.
Nothing like an “old dude” to set my morals straight. It’s all clear now.
badwolf-
Your right. I should have chosen my words better.
Jesus’ life and sacrifice eliminated the need for much of the Old Testament regulations.
As an analogy, think about how our laws of transportation have changed from horse & buggy to automobiles. It doesn’t change the spirit of safety that the laws are meant to provide.
Man’s relationship with God changed after the life and death of Jesus, and so did the application of His law.
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” [Matt22:37-40]
I think you all should get out of your chairs and go do something for someone else, like Pastor Warren does. He`s helped a lot of people all over the world. Use your energy to help others rather than sit there and criticize, or try to make it known how intelligent you are(mensarino). Mensarino, how did you become such a pompous bore?
Aww, JakeD, quoting the Bible are we?
I must say I am dissapointed. From our conversation about a week ago, you seemed almost credible..Your logic almost justified your stance, now your fallback on the bible to stregthen your arguement has just taken away both your autonomy and validity.
People, GAY MARRIAGE IS INEVITABLE. It will happen here eventually. Some Christian churches have already evolved to embody the new social movement..It’s just a matter of time.
Old Dude, tap-tap-tap tappity taptaptap? Tappity tap taptaptatap Sen Tappy’s taptap tap ta tap.
Translation for those that don’t understand tap- “Old Dude, will you still be at John Wayne Airport tonight at 6PM, Senator Craig (Republican) may be a few minutes late, his flight is delayed.”
mensarino,
There are spheres of applicability that need to be defined. Applicability in the ordering and governing of society at large, applicability within the faith community, and applicability at the final judgment.
Since I gather that you lack belief in the Christian deity, you are probably not concerned about at the last two of those three spheres, nor the basis for their applicability. As a Christian I can assure you that Christians often get these things wrong, and bad ideas have consequences. Refraining from eating meat on Friday is a misapplication since the New Testament clearly addresses the purpose of dietary laws and their limits of application. However, the Catholic church has historically blundered the application of the Law in the first sphere I mentioned above (general ordering and governing of society at large) by getting confused about the purpose of the theocracy of Israel and attempting to mingle the authority of the Church with the authority of the state, resulting in a multiheaded beast called Christendom (the politicization of the Christian faith). The consequences of that mistake are ENORMOUS as many history books can tell.
So the fact that misapplication CAN happen doesn’t mean that figuring out proper application is impossible or that its all relative.
The bible itself witnesses to various Gentile socieites having the potential to uphold proper social order even without the special regulations of the Mosaic Law, to the extent that multiple faiths and ethnic groups are able to peacefully co-exist well enough for the general benefit of society.
It is when the general peace is disturbed (a bible isn’t needed to figure when this is happening) that problems arise and the threat of punishment is required to maintain order.
hope this helps
j
BobJ:
They made it obvious — read between the lines — given the protests and potential for serious disruption, I don’t fault Saddleback Church for keeping an extra eye on homosexuals right now.
JakeD, you’re very skilled at making creative interpretations of scripture when it suits your personal convenience to do so!
Unlike you, I will refrain from bragging about my educational qualifications other than to say I more than meet your standing.
Who knows,in this setting ,one or both of us could be exaggerating—lol
Oops, sorry, you wouldn’t lie would you….that would be a sin.
I’m convinced that those who scream from the pulpit (or internet blogs) the loudest against gays and are absolutely obsessed with the concept of gay sex, really have the desire for gay sex themselves.
Mark Foley, Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, Bob Allen, Glenn Murphy Jr. were all hardcore bible thumping, gay hating bigots, who in the end (no pun intended) let there confusion about there own sexuality be their downfall.
I think we can safely add JakeD and oldude to that category.
Check out the Mineshaft in LB this weekend fellas, you’ll have a great time.
seneca:
Someone else asked about “free choice” and whether the Bible teaches us not to judge others. That doesn’t mean I use it as the basis for secular law.
“Warren does NOT give a big waiver to those that commit adultery or divorce — in fact, you cannot be on staff at Saddleback Church during that — unrepentant heterosexuals are treated exactly the same as unrepentant homosexuals.”
You sure can be a member, unlike gays! WAIVERS!!!!!!!!
Divorce is a choice!!!
Remarriage for women is NOT ALLOWED per Jesus. WAIVERS!!!!!!
JakeD—wow. Even for you, that’s a cruel and horrid thing to say.
OCLizard:
Thanks.
Love the Hypocrites:
Call the Church office and ask them if they give waivers for divorce or allow unrepentant heterosexuals to be members.
LizardOC:
I meant “Thanks” about your compliment, not that “read[ing] between the lines” is cruel and horrid.
You are correct,Joe,I am not a believer.I do ,however ,respect your civil and thoughtful posts.We disagree but you have my respect.
Now, what about all of those catholics rotting in hell for eating meat on Fridays?Where do catholics believe they are? Is the change in law a retroactive thing?
“With parental permission, a public charter school took 18 first-graders on a field trip to San Francisco City Hall where their teacher and her female partner had just been wed by Mayor Gavin Newsom.”
What’s the problem? Do you want to remove the kids from their parents since they give permission to attend the wedding?
badwolf:
Seriously, I believe that you claiming that I am “absolutely obsessed with the concept of gay sex [and] really have the desire for gay sex” qualifies as a “personal attack” prohibited under the User Agreement.
JakeD:
Regarding your 3:31 post - Two different things. It is ok for the church to keep an eye on people for potential problems but it is another for attenders of the church to treat people with disrespect. No excuse for that.
Warren:
Yes.
My next door neighbor is a divorced female with full membership at Saddleback church. She remarried a man she met at the church.
Jesus does NOT allow her to be remarried!!! Waivers!!!!
Jake, I get the feeling you’d like to have all LGBTs under surveillance at all times. And I’m beginning to suspect that you’d volunteer for the job of watching all the videotape.
Have you stopped to ask yourself why you’re so obsessed with the sex lives of others?
BobJ:
“Attenders” of the church could have been someone there for the very first time too. I doubt that any long-time members — who attempt to greet every person — made fun of LizardOC (assuming she’s even telling the truth).
It would help many of you who are throwing Old Testament verses around to learn how to study such verses in context. The Old Testament Law was given to govern the Nation of Israel. In it you have the Moral Law (the 10 Commandments), the Civil Law that the nation was to be governed under, and the Ceremonial Law by which the priest were to worship God by through the sacrifices. Homosexuality was not be accepted under the “Civil Law” of OT Israel. According to the Word of God homosexuality is also a sin for it breaks the Moral Law of God for thou shall not commit adultery, nor covet his neighbors wife, or anything else that belongs to his neighbor. Again folks, context, context, context. Some of you who are for homosexual marriage are really showing our ignorance to the truth of the Word of God.
Thanks Jake, that certainly answered my theory about you!!
LizardOC:
No.
Love the Hypocrites:
What is your next door neighbor’s name?
JakeD, you were not there, and I will thank you to quit suggesting that I’m a liar. Among others, the two women volunteering at the information table–a place clearly intended for folks new to the church–treated us with contempt. Doesn’t the Bible talk about the sin of inhospitality?
badwolf:
Pointing out a “personal attack” prohibited under the User Agreement validated WHAT theory? That I am a stickler against ad hominem logic?
badwolf—I think you hit a nerve with good old jake.Maybe he’s a lawyer afterall since he threatened the user agreement thing—lol
Steve, the Bible makes for interesting conversation, but it has nothing to do with civil marriage.
LizardOC:
No need to thank me (I was speaking hypothetically). Which service did you attend?
Mike Hunt
Jake, ‘logic’ is definitely not a word that encompasses anything in your life.
By not answering the question, you just confirmed by suspicions. Just admit it it’s OK. The first step is acceptance.
Steve—just what commandment specifically prohibits homosexuality?
I liked Rick Warren’s quote in that first clip:
“There’s a name for people who believe everything they read or hear–it’s called foolish”.
How very true. They might also be called idiots… Or worse, Christians.
Jake, you still don’t believe me? You want photos? Post your e-mail address and I’ll send you some.
Jake—Your views are illogical whether you are gay or straight.
LizardOC:
Did you read my 3:25 post? The information table is just that. A place where ANYONE can go for info, not just new people. Even regular attenders are directed there after services to get information on a current event or topic. Just because you go there doesn’t mean that the volunteers are going to know you are new. Don’t be so quick to jump to conclusions. You sound very closed minded when you do that.
badwolf:
Again with the ad hominem personal attacks. But, wait, you didn’t answer my question about where you graduated from school, so doesn’t that prove MY theory against you? LOL!
LizardOC:
I don’t wants photos. I just want you to let me know what time you and your girlfriend attended.
mensarino:
For the last time, where did you graduate from?
BobJ, the information-table women were not the ones who ignored us. We initiated a conversation with them, and we were friendly and warm. They replied politely to our questions, and as soon as we walked away, they pointed, laughed, made faces, and rolled their eyes. Then they realized we were looking over our shoulders, and they looked embarrassed. I smiled and waved goodbye.
We’ll come back another Sunday. Perhaps the reception will be different.
Jake, you’re starting to get creepy.
how about we arrange for a crud load of gays to attend a service at Saddlebareback?
Hi mensarino,
I didn’t intend to eternally judge those who hold to the misapplications I was talking about. That’s not my place.
I’m just saying that we get certain things wrong and getting things wrong will have real, tangible consequences. At best, the attempt of some Christians to apply dietary laws now is useless. It is of absolutely no spiritual benefit even if it appears like it is. Spirituality is defined as activity, in how we give ourselves to one another self-sacrifically. Putting the needs of others ahead of ourselves. Please indulge me for a minute, because I think this is important.
It is the core principle of “love” that continues to carry on from all 613 of those strange Mosaic commandments. Jesus clearly identified the love of God and love of neighbor as the main organizing principles of the entire Law and the prophets. The truly important thing in all of Israel’s experience under those Laws was the individual conduct, attitude, and motivation. Jesus said that if you get those two basic commandments down, you’re in the clear.
Of course the irony is those two commandments are so far reaching and demanding we can’t just get them down pat since we are self absorbed by nature. So the tension in the Christian faith is to strive to fulfill those two commandments. Love is a debt that can never be repaid, but we ought to live as if we could repay it.
The Christian ethic is founded upon the Mosaic Law, but it goes beyond it. Because the pattern given to us also goes beyond the Mosaic Law. The Son of God became flesh and lived among us, sacrificing his divine right in order to fulfill what we couldn’t, even setting aside the penalty for our sins when we ourselves could care less. That was a matter of undeserved grace, not justice. God didn’t have to do it.
So our lives must characterize something much more than mere justice. Forget counting the scars and the hours we would want to get retribution for those who have offended. Putting the interests of others (even those we don’t particularly get along with) ahead of ourselves is a tiny reflection of God’s glory. THAT’s the applicability of the moral standards of the bible. We will not murder, hate, steal, lie, commit adultery, covet, worship false ideas, etc. if we are too busy looking out for the good of our neighbor in a way that glorifies God.
Just be aware that disrupting a worship service is against the law in California ; )
Jake—-I have two master’s degrees,one from UCI and one from CSULB.I am also a member of MENSA.
I did not need any of those to duel with you because your only counter to fact is faith.If religion is the foundation of your critical thinking, there holds little prospect for fruitful discussion.We are not speaking the same language.
Thanks,Joe.
You are a true credit to your side of the issue.
See how easy that was. Why is it like pulling teeth to get simple answers around here? Wait, DON’T answer that.
My next door neighbor is a divorced female with full membership at Saddleback church. She remarried a man she met at the church.
Jesus does NOT allow her to be remarried!!! Waivers!!!!
I said ATTEND. Did I say DISRUPT?
See, you are already assuming something…
Love the Hypocrites, hate the sin:
I saw that the first time you posted. I also asked for the name of said next door neighbor.
LizardOC: Good luck. I hope you give it another try.
To All: I have to go now. I want to leave you with this for what it is worth. I am not a “preachy” Christian. I don’t take the hard sale approach. I feel a persons beliefs are their own issue. I have actually done my research and homework and have decided Christianity is the most fact based religion and the one I believe. The bible has been around for thousands of years and no one has been able to disprove any part of it. No historian doubts the existence of Jesus. He did exist. Those of you who want facts that God exists are never going to get it. That is why it is called faith. To those of you who say it is full of contradictions, show me one. What people call contradictions are easily explained away with logic. You want to point to evolution? Talk about a theory filled with holes. Do your own research.
I leave you with one thought, If I am wrong, not a big deal. I have lived a good life and have met some great people. I have been blessed enough to be able to help other people out. But what if you who don’t believe are wrong? What if someday you actually are standing in front of God and have to answer for your life. Take a moment tonight while you are laying in bed and think about that. Thanks for the conversation in the discussion area. Have a great night.
“The”Wisdom”: We discriminate all the time (even legally, unless you want to repeal laws against incest, polygamy, beastiality, etc.?).”
Thanks for responding Jake!
Did you really just justify Brenna’s discrimination against gays to discriminating against incest and polygamy. You really are learning from Rick Warren.
Now dont you try to back out of that statement like Rick.
BobJ:
Good night : )
Jesus is coming soon. Jesus said in Matthew that when He comes it will be as in the days of Noah, and folks, we’re there!!! In Noah’s day, mankind had become so immoral, so self-centered, so rottenly evil that God said that “He was sorry that He even made man.” Mankind in Noah’s day had become extremely violent, they were marrying and divorcing, marrying and divorcing over and over again. Homosexuality had become rampant, anything went for the people in Noah’s day, and then the rain fell and Noah and his family were the only humans that were saved. They received shelter from the judgment of God by going aboard the ark. Well, Jesus is comng soon as evidenced by the behavior and the very obvious signs that are going on in the world all around us. I encourage you to repent and place your faith in Jesus Christ before you find yoruself left behind and facing the judgment of God that will be coming to all those who reject His Son. The written comments by the hard hearted people here are evidence enough that were are truly in the last days. Folks, I’m not a gay hater, nor a homophobe, just concerned as to where you’ll spend your eternity. It’s time to turn to Christ…..
So who wants to go to Saddlebareback?
lol..
For some reason, Joe’s interpretation of biblical law (we call it social control), reminds me of when I watch people play World of Warcraft.
It seems they are in their own little world, with their own jargon, and only play to the rules that will gain them one step ahead. (or in his case, a place in heaven) And they both convert so many people!
I guess the great irony of this whole thing, is that these religious people truly do believe they are doing the right thing..
I just think its disgusting how people find solace and individual spirituality in mainstream religion while unknowingly joining a powerful pact to relinquish the rights of minorities, uphold the status quo, and carry out the will of their own interpretations of what a fictitious fairy tale deems as “moral”.
In all seriousness, Jake, you’re beginning to behave like a cyberstalker.
TheWisdom:
You’re welcome. The same exact arguments being used for same-sex marriage will be used for incest or polygamy next. On that, I completely agree with Pastor Rick. Neither I nor he backed out of that statement.
LizardOC:
No skin off my nose if you don’t want to answer. Have a nice life.
Badwolf,
Did the refence to Anthony Flew’s book “There is a God” throw you off? I mean if the most heralded atheist now believes there is a God doesn’t that show you to be somewhat close minded? Any answer or would you fell more comfortable just ignoring the issue all to gether?
LOL Seneca, good analogy.
Well it’s been fun peeps. I’m off to consume copious amounts of alcohol at my work xmas party.
Toodles
Jake you have too much time on here Get a real job!! LOL
Forget about the neighbors name Jake, that would be highly unethical on an anonymous blog.
Certainly the Saddleback church is not allowing divorced remarried women in their church right? They certainly aren’t officiating their weddings right Jake? That would go against Jesus!
JakeD-
Again, your slippery slope theory does not hold much merit, but fear.
Craig:
I’m retired with plenty of time to waste here. Care to answer my questions to you now?
Love the Hypocrites:
Again, no skin off my nose if you don’t want to support your allegations.
Helen Highwater, when Christians become atheists, does that show you to be closed-minded? No? Then why should the reverse be true?
seneca:
It’s not a “slippery slope theory” if it’s already happening in other States where same-sex marriage was forced on society.
Helen, I don’t find one insignificant atheist converting to Christianity to be convincing, anymore than you find the hundreds of thousands of Christians who are now atheists to be convincing.
Helen Highwater, You cannot willfully choose to blog here and say that you are a follower of Jesus, that is blasphemy to God. God is longsuffering, He gives us many chances to turn away from our sin and to accept Him as our Savior.
The Bible tells women to keep quiet in these matters. Its a choice that you blog here. You HelenHighwater are an Abomination, you will burn in Hell.
“Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man,
Wait, what is this article about? I gotta re-read it…
“I’m opposed to having a brother and sister together and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to having an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage…”
However, in the video Warren posted yesterday, he says:
“I’ve in no way ever taught that homosexuality is the same thing as a forced relationship between an adult and a child, or between siblings….”
Yep, just what I thought… Thats a textbook backout
Massachusetts public schools teach same-sex marriage and REFUSE to allow parents to pull their kids from the class.
Seneca, remember, JakeD thinks we’re already halfway down the “slippery slope,” because he thinks all homosexual and extra-marital sex should be illegal.
LizardOC Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Steve, the Bible makes for interesting conversation, but it has nothing to do with civil marriage.
Oh but it very clearly does LizardOC. Marriage was instituted by God in the first place. God created Adam and realizing that it wasn’t good for man to be alone, He put Adam into a deep sleep and took from Adams side a rib and from it He formed woman. And God brought her to the man. And Adam said, “This now is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh, she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man.
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
And that was the first marriage and God put them together. Now just think, had God taken from Adam’s side and rib and fashioned it into another man, where would any of us be today?!? This is why the New Testament says in Romans ch. 1 that the sin of homosexuality is “against nature”. The act of men with men, or women with women is not a natural act according to the Word of God and it is indeed deemed sin in both the Old and New Testaments.
JakeD-
People have tried to repeal incest and polygamy laws in states long before same-sex marriages were “forced”.
Steve: You’re still talking about religious marriage. The issue is civil marriage. I do not have much hope that you’ll be able to make this distinction.
What’s to clarify? Man + Woman = Marriage. Man + Man, Woman + Woman = Companionship.
TheWisdom:
Assuming you are not referring to the brother and sister part (because that does not mean “forced) but rather “I’m opposed to having an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage…” Those are different points along the SLIPPERY SLOPE (as seneca likes to call it). Please explain how you think that “I’ve in no way ever taught that homosexuality is the same thing as a forced relationship between an adult and a child” is a contradiction?
seneca:
Sure, but we were able to hold the fort back then. There will be no legal justification to stop them once same-sex marriage is permitted.
wow, talk about the liberal media. another reporter forcing his views on readers.
And wasn’t it Obama that asked Warren to give the invocation? And yet all this talk about Warren and his views. What would these articles look like if Warren declined the president-elect’s invitation? Even worse I would imagine.
Why do we even have to have prayers at a Presidential thing? This whole kerfuffle is OBAMA’S fault. Warren is who he is, and we all know that. But this nationwide epidemic of bickering over Warren could have been avoided if O had brought the change he promised, starting with dumping religious junk out of government!!
JakeD-
That’s simply not true and you know it.
Look at the legislation… It is same-sex marriages.. not incest, or pedophilia. If anything, it compliments most states’ amendments that forbid discrimination in anything because of gender.
Like I said before- It takes time for a social movement, for people to see past the fears of a slippery slope theory.
When we finally allowed blacks (who we considered a second class citizen) to marry whites..did this event culminate into a complete breakdown of American tradition of liberty and justice for all? No, actually, the exact opposite. This did not culminate into an undesirable event, but infact united all of America. Why wouldn’t you wish that again?
Steve—-you said god instituted marriage in the first place.Oh really?
Can you prove that without referencing your bible as the source?
Cite the proof!
Sweet, math lessons with words.
I never knew math involved nouns!
Orange Frosting-
Or, you could see it as Obama trying to unite all of America, regardless of beliefs or party.
Steve—If you believe the ten commandments are the true foundation of mosaic law, tell me which commandment specifically condemns homosexuality.
This is my second request,have you no answer?
Jake seems to have no answer. Anyone?
Why does Saddleback church continually defy the laws of JESUS Himself and allow divorced women to remarry? This is an Abomination.
They even conduct the ceremonies there!!!!
JakeD:
I see your point, but when I first read “I’m opposed to having an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage.” I equate that to the older guy “forcing” or at least some other sort of coercion and I am pretty sure thats what Rick meant by saying it. Or he would have said “older woman” also. In my mind he backed out because he equated that to same-sex marriage.
I think the only thing that I’ve learned on this posting is that people are going to beleive what they want to beleive.
Good luck on your quests in life.
Jake D is so full of himself it is pathetic. He can’t stand other people’s opinions. He always has to come back with something on EVERY post. Jake, were you loved as a child? geez. Get a life
seneca,
1) Are you saying that I am saying that biblical law is merely a matter of social control? If so, you haven’t demonstrated you understand what I actually wrote. Try again.
2) Is it supposed to be easier to color me (motives and all) if you don’t address me directly?
just curious
Seneca, maybe, and I hope it works. Doesn’t look good right now though. We’ve never tried dumping the prayers altogether, so why not? Change, hey. Let Obama and everyone else pray (or not) as they see fit, privately.
LizardOC Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Steve: You’re still talking about religious marriage. The issue is civil marriage. I do not have much hope that you’ll be able to make this distinction.
LizardOC:
You’re right, I won’t, because civil marriage isn’t in the Bible. It’s not recognized by God, in God’s eyes it just 2 more people living in an immoral sinful relationship and some day both will have to stand before God Almighty and be judged. I don’t know about you but the thought of this makes me tremble!!!
Wait… I take that statement back.
I have learned how to justify any discrimination because some people have commited incest and beastiality. Sweet.
Love the Hypocrites:
I told you I would gladly answer your question, just as soon as you asnwered mine. I thought you didn’t want to answer my question, so that’s where we left it. Let me know if you do want to answer my question now.
TheWisdom:
Good luck to you as well.
Hi Joe Branca!
No, I said biblical law is a matter of social control, not you… religious people don’t see that way, and never will.
But I also think Law is a matter of social control, too.. I just feel law is more flexible and all-encompassing, as it should be… Your religion is more exclusive, perverse, and counterprogressive.. So, I gave up on it shortly after I realized it defied science.
Jake seems to have no answer. Anyone? Steve?
Why does Saddleback church continually defy the laws of JESUS Himself and allow divorced women to remarry? This is an Abomination.
They even conduct the ceremonies there!!!!
With all due respect, Steve, what makes me tremble is the thought of you votingon my civil rights.
asnwered = answered
Lizardoc—very well put!
Orangefrosting-
Rick warren is a total douche bag. I know exactly how you feel. But Obama needs all the support he can get right now from all parties and the religious rite =)… our nation is in a crap hole and he will be asking a lot from everyone so we need to unite regardless of the conditions.
Although, I’m not religious at all, I prefer the more optomistic outlook.
Mensarino: Thou shall not commit adultery.
After 5:00 p.m., the OC Register stops including messages from first-time posters, so if you post to me after hours, don’t worry. I will respond tomorrow. After that, I’m sure the OC Register staff (and all of us) will take the Christmas holiday off.
God Bless, everyone.
seneca:
I would prefer if Obama provided his LONG FORM birth certificate to erase my doubts about him being a “natural born” citizen and therefore Constitutionally Qualified to become President of the United States. Until then, he will be pResident Obama to me.
Ldsdan—That commandment is not about homosexuality and you know it.It refers to adultery or is gay sex ok if neither party is married.
That was weak,dan.
Next?
Jake—Oh, you really are a kook…..now everything is falling in place.
You had better call Stanford and get your money back.
mensarino:
ALL sex outside of marriage is sin. Why does it matter to you? You don’t believe in the “boogeyman in the sky”.
It’s OK to refer to Bush as “pResident” but not Obama?
Advice: Don’t start bidding on E-Bay if you have been drinking and finish eating your donuts before quoting the bible.
JakeD-
Obama has given hope to a lot of Americans in this shitty time. Why are you so keen on staying on an old path? Your aligations are speculation and fear-based as usual.
For the record- McCain was born in Panama.
I see you did not respond to my other comment that was actually on topic..
I just wanted the commandment that covered this since so many of you hide behind the bible.
Your answer doesn’t work either…..ding ding, thanks for playing.
Next?
Hi seneca,
If you take the actual biblical law in isolation from its context, then it is arbitrary and yes has a highly bizarre degree of social control.
But like I’ve already tried to say, it can’t just be lifted from its broader contexts. This is common sense reading comprehension. There were two parties binding themselves together in a covenant in which there were sanctions of blessings and curse. It can’t be social control if the people volunteered to take the requirements upon themselves.
Furthermore, that covenant arrangement was like a national constitution specific to a people who descended from a specific individual (Abraham) to whom specific oaths had already been made. There was a larger historical drama at work which were for specific purposes. It was not arbitrary, it had a purpose in view.
And, the later writings (the “prophets”) reject having the biblical law as mere social control. The prophets were like covenant attorneys bringing a lawsuit against the people, charging them with ignoring the true meat of the matter by indulging in social injustices of every stripe, even while they were diligent in the dietary and ceremonial aspects of the Law.
…
Ok, so that’s all world-of-warcraft gamer speak to you. Fine. But keep in mind your characterizing all religious people as trying to make biblical law (”social control”) something more than it is comes from the unproven assumption that there is no transcendent divine being in whom all moral order is based. Ok, great. But that’s an implied presupposition, nothing more.
And the corollary would be that *every* law ever conceived of is a matter of either personal preference or the tyrannical opinion of the majority. So its *flexibility* is entirely relative to what side of the law your personal preferences take you. The tyranny of the majority opinion is always very exclusive, perverse, and counterprogressive to someone. Because that’s not you at this moment, you can’t see it that way. Maybe you never will.
joe
I was actually thinking JakeD was being unfairly maligned here until he started in about Obama’s birth certificate.
Nice talking to all of you.Laker game calls.
Happy holiday to all !
seneca:
I missed your other post. It is true that the next “special rights” group will pick up where same-sex marriage leaves off, and you know it. I hope we can hold the line, but I’ve heard no legal justification for same sex marriage that cannot be used by polygamists, for instance. If you want to just limit it to “gender” then what would your argument be against an adult mother marrying her adult daughter?
That’s not a slippery slope, because those groups are indeed trying to gain their “rights” in MA and CT. Sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable but it’s the honest truth. It is also interesting that you seem so intent on allowing “discrimination” against those other groups but are so gung-ho on giving homosexual “marriage” rights. Why don’t you want to unite all of America, including polygamists and pedophiles? Comparing immutable race to deviant sexual behavior is just not logical either side you fall on this argument.
As for why I am so keen on staying on an old path, because it’s proven. Why do you want to jump off the cliff?
BTW: (for you and Orangefrosting now, too): McCain didn’t win. Both of his parents were U.S. citizens, therefore McCain is a “natural born” citizen regardless of where he was born. Obama’s birth is a different matter. It isn’t “fear” to simply ask for him to release his LONG FORM birth certificate. Why do you think he won’t?
Sorry mensarino, I was busy with LizardOC.
mensarino Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Steve—If you believe the ten commandments are the true foundation of mosaic law, tell me which commandment specifically condemns homosexuality.
This is my second request,have you no answer?
While the 7th Commandment does not mention the act of homosexuality it does say “thou shall not commit adultery.” And Jesus said, You have heard that it was said to those of old, “You shall not commit adultery.” “But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
So you see, the Law of God is not only physical, but it is spiritual as God judges the thoughts and intents of our heart as well by it.
The homosexual lifestyle is greatly charged by lust leaving everyone of them guilty of breaking the 7th commandment of God. It doesn’t matter whether they lust for members of the same sex or not.
In the Old Testament God calls the act of homosexuality an abomination. The word “abomination” in the original Hebrew speaks of “something of extreme disgust”. Now God loves the people who struggle with this sin, as a matter of fact He gave His only begottten Son to die upon the cross n order to pay for their sin and mine as well, and (yours also Mensarino).
Now less you think this is just an “Old Testament” view of homosexuality and God doesn’t look at it that way anymore. God’ s Word says in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, not idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Then the next verse is incredible, Paul writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God in vs. 11, he says to the people of the church of Corinth: And such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
The people there in Corith repented of these various sins and placed their faith in the risen Christ and this transformed their lives and their views on right and wrong, good and evil, morality and immorality.
And also I want you to notice, it wasn’t just homosexual sin that was in these peoples past, it was heterosexual sin as well that the people of Corinth repented of.
Now I saw your comment on you degrees and membership of mensa, that’s great, it’s wonderful to be smart, God has blessed you in that area, but let me say this, Jesus says in Mark 10:15 “Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.” Praying for ya Mensarino.
Joe-
You wrote:
“It can’t be social control if the people volunteered to take the requirements upon themselves.” –Thats exactly what social control is.. people being brainwashed to accept their “duty” in life.
Also, you’re correct. Law isn’t perfect. But a majoritarian is slightly better than a perverse hierarchy and superstition. And trust me, I see what the “tyranny of a majority” is capable of..i.e prop 8. But the constitution offers one sentance that makes law positively more encompassing than religion.. “Liberty and justice for ALL”.
And.. like religion.. unfortunately we pick and choose what that means. But, regardless, in this secular nation, the LAW is the ultimate authority, not religion.
Keep in mind that I bring up incest and polygamy as just two secular examples (mainly to bug “FundamentallyFlawed”), but there are MILLIONS of people who cannot legally marry (probably more than there are homosexuals in the State): prison inmates, wards of the State, other legally-incapacitated adults, adults and children, as well as minor children who cannot marry themselves. I will have to double-check the age, i.e. if 15 year-olds can marry with parental consent.
Historically, there have been countless restrictions placed on marriage by different societies. Restrictions against polygamy and marrying within a particular group are just the most common. Many societies, even some with a cultural tradition of polygamy, recognize monogamy as the only valid form of marriage. Many societies have also adopted other restrictions on whom one can marry, such as prohibitions of marrying persons with the same surname, or persons with the same sacred animal. Societies have also at times required marriage from within a certain group. Anthropologists refer to these restrictions as endogamy (I learned a new word from Wikipedia ; )
If pointing any of that out leads you to unfairly malign me, go right ahead.
mensarino Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Steve—-you said god instituted marriage in the first place.Oh really?
Can you prove that without referencing your bible as the source?
Cite the proof
Mensarino:
The Word of God is enough proof for me, it endures for forever. What’s your proof???? Go Lakers!
JakeD-
We talked about this before.. an adult mother marrying her daughter is incest..not discrimination based on gender.
You need to accept that gay marriage has nothing to do with incest or polygamy.. It’s ignorant to think otherwise.
By the way, there is such a thing as “notching the slippery slope”. Many theorists have devised steps to do just that.
There is also a whole host of other nations that accept “gay marriage” and not the other two.. it’s not a package deal…
Staying on an old path has proven to be counterproductive. The old way of doing things means my only worth would be in the kitchen.. unfortunately, I’m paid to think; not cook.
And I “jump off” because I know its wrong. I feel like Atticus Finch being called a n*gger lover, because he knew those people were being treated unfairly based on skin color, and I feel the same way about homosexuals.
JakeD-
There are also some societies that believe in homosexual marriages as being better than heterosexual marriages! Check out the Native Americans. The Berdache and the Achnueks (homosexuals)
A sin to the Church is the same as any other sin.
That is what is being said. Next story or attempt thereof.
Love the Hypocrites, hate the sin Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Jake seems to have no answer. Anyone? Steve?
Why does Saddleback church continually defy the laws of JESUS Himself and allow divorced women to remarry? This is an Abomination.
They even conduct the ceremonies there!!!!
Dear Lover of Hypocrites: While I do not attend Saddleback so I don’t speak for that church fellowship or their policies, the subject of marriage and remarriage has been one of great debate for many years. The Bible does allow for divorce in certain instances, such as sexual immorality or abandonment (see 1 Cor 7). Originally this wasn’t God’s design, marriage was meant to last a lifetime, but because of the hardness of man’s heart, God allowed for it in this very limited situations. Now the religious leaders of Jesus day had differing views of this, some said that a man could divorce his wife for any reason, while other’s said that it was allowed only for sexual immorality. In the case of the spouse who is a believer in Christ, being abandoned by their unbelieving spouse, the Bible says that the person who has been abandoned is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.
So that person is free of their bondage to the unbelieving spouse who wanted out of the marriage. And the unbelieiving spouse is called to peace. That is they are free to remarry. Some look at marriage as the unpardonable sin, but it’s not. The blasephemy of the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin.
Why even God divorced the nation of Israel as they played the harlot going after other gods.
So lighten up on Saddleback and their marrying people who have repented. Some of these people who get married there probably got saved after the divorce and have become spiritually new creations in Christ old things, such as a failed marriage have been forgiven and forgotten by God having been washed by the sinless blood of Christ.
Wow…religious wackos are still making me laugh. The next thing they’ll say is the Jesus will solve the mortgage mess.
LizardOC Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:48 pm
With all due respect, Steve, what makes me tremble is the thought of you votingon my civil rights.
LizardOC:
Seriously, there’s a judgment coming in which man will stand before God Almighty who is holy and righteous and just, and He knows all things, including the thoughts and intents of your heart. And the books will be opened and all those who are not written in the Lambs Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire that was prepared for Satan and his demons.
LizardOC: the Bibles says that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And this is where your choice comes in, to humble yourself before God Almighty now in this life, or do so at the Great White Throne day of judgment, but for all who wait for that day it will be to late. And this will make your civil rights seem like a joke in that day.
Fab5 Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Wow…religious wackos are still making me laugh. The next thing they’ll say is the Jesus will solve the mortgage mess.
Hey Fab5, that’d be nice!!!!
LizardOC-
Just ignore them, and they might go away.
It is useless trying to reason with people who are unreasonable.. especially religious people with bounded rationality..
And they wanted ME to sugar coat it?!
Go get ‘em, Steve.
Seneca:
You still haven’t answered: “Why don’t you want to unite ALL Americans, polygamists included?”
“The Bible does allow for divorce in certain instances, such as sexual immorality or abandonment (see 1 Cor 7). Originally this wasn’t God’s design, marriage was meant to last a lifetime, but because of the hardness of man’s heart, God allowed for it in this very limited situations.”
I think god has changed his mind again. I think god would like to see gays be able to marry the person if their choice. So, lets re-write the bible so you bible thumbers would go away.
Lakers are tied.
JakeD-
Polygamy was not what I was trying to unite, I think you know what I was speaking about. Polygamy is not the social movement I am speaking of, nor what other nations are accepting right now as valid forms of marriage.
Polygamy is not dividing the Nation right now– Same-sex marriages are.
Warren:
God never changed His Mind.
seneca Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 5:35 pm
JakeD-
There are also some societies that believe in homosexual marriages as being better than heterosexual marriages! Check out the Native Americans. The Berdache and the Achnueks (homosexuals)
Seneca: Again, homosexuality is purely against nature. If these tribes were purely homosexual, that is if they had relations only with members of the same sex, they wouldn’t be around in 100 years. This is why God wanted this behavior banished from the land in the OT, see 1 Kings 15:11. It says “Asa did what was right in the eyes of the Lord. Vs. 12 says: he banished the perverted persons from the land and removed all the idols that his father had made.
That word “perverted” in the original Hebrew speaks of the homosexual. In vs. 13 he also removed the obscene image of Asherah that his immoral grandmother had put up. People were worshipping sexual images and the nation had become very sexual charged.
In 1 Kings 22 Asa’s son is now king and he too was called a good king in the eyes of God and he also banished the perverted persons from the land that remained from his fathers day.
Now why would God be so concerned about homosexuality being banished from Israel? It’s because God was seeking to protect His people from a lifestyle that would bring destruction to His people. He was seeking to protect and preserve His people so that the Messiah could come through them. This is why He commanded them to go into the Promised land and destroy the Canaanites who were doing terrible wicked things. God was bringing judgment upon them in order to protect His people from idolatry and immorality that would lead to their destruction.
So don’t buy into the lie that homosexuality is better than the way that God designed man and woman and sexuality.
Warren Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:18 pm
“The Bible does allow for divorce in certain instances, such as sexual immorality or abandonment (see 1 Cor 7). Originally this wasn’t God’s design, marriage was meant to last a lifetime, but because of the hardness of man’s heart, God allowed for it in this very limited situations.”
I think god has changed his mind again. I think god would like to see gays be able to marry the person if their choice. So, lets re-write the bible so you bible thumbers would go away.
Warren: Praying for you dude.
“”"So lighten up on Saddleback and their marrying people who have repented. Some of these people who get married there probably got saved after the divorce and have become spiritually new creations in Christ old things, such as a failed marriage have been forgiven and forgotten by God having been washed by the sinless blood of Christ.”"”
Waivers waivers and more waivers. Its funny how one or two lines in the Bible can be used against gays, but divorce which is mentioned numerous times is allowed to be interpreted to suit the masses.
Jesus NEVER mentioned these waivers you talk about, In fact he was quite clear on divorce and re-marriage. You are making this stuff up. Then you have the gall to throw the book at gays, even though Jesus said nothing about them.
This is why JESUS warned against casting stones.
Another thing, how convenient that these people can get “saved” after the divorce.
Divorce is a CHOICE!!!
“Time to man up! And, I ain’t gonna sugarcoat it.”
Kirk Lazarus “Tropic Thunder”
Steve Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Warren Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:18 pm
“The Bible does allow for divorce in certain instances, such as sexual immorality or abandonment (see 1 Cor 7). Originally this wasn’t God’s design, marriage was meant to last a lifetime, but because of the hardness of man’s heart, God allowed for it in this very limited situations.”
I think god has changed his mind again. I think god would like to see gays be able to marry the person if their choice. So, lets re-write the bible so you bible thumbers would go away.
Warren:
God didn’t change His mind when He allowed for divorce. When He instituted marriage in the beginning, sin had not entered the scene. After the first man and woman were created and brought together as one flesh, sin entered into the human race and it’s been downhill ever since. God only allowed for divorce because of the hardness of man’s heart to forgive one another.
Love the Hypocrites:
Homosexuals can repent too.
Steve:
If they won’t even believe in God, they surely won’t buy that was His Plan all along.
“Homosexuals can repent too.”
What a joke! Gays can repent, and Christians can ignore Jesus on divorce and remarriage! What a great scam.
Divorce is a CHOICE!
Bigots can repent too. Won’t you feel silly if judgment day arrives and it turns out that God prefers gays to sanctimonious, judgmental blowhards?
Love the Hypocrites, hate the sin Says:
Waivers waivers and more waivers. Its funny how one or two lines in the Bible can be used against gays, but divorce which is mentioned numerous times is allowed to be interpreted to suit the masses.
Jesus NEVER mentioned these waivers you talk about, In fact he was quite clear on divorce and re-marriage. You are making this stuff up. Then you have the gall to throw the book at gays, even though Jesus said nothing about them.
Dear “Love the hypocrites”: I never mentioned the word “waiver” if you have problem with what the Bible says take it up with God. As I recall the article that this conversation stems from is “gay marriage” not marriage and divorce. But yes, the Bible does mention divorce several times, beginning with Moses in the Law. Deut 24:1 talks about the civil laws under the nation of Israel and interestingly enough it talks about divorce and remarriage which was allowed under the Law.
But yes, the Bible does mention divorce several times and divorce is brought about by the choice of the people invovled to sin.
Now on the issue of homosexuality and the Bible there’s many more verses condemning the act of homosexuality that just “a couple of lines”.
And I didn’t make any of them up, they’ve been there in writing for thousands of years, having been inspired by God Himself, so take your complaint to Him.
Love the Hypocrites, hate the sin Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Another thing, how convenient that these people can get “saved” after the divorce.
Yea, I agree, it’s pretty convenient and it can happen for you too. Again, it’s not about divorce or homosexuality, it’s about the fact you , like me have broken God’s Law and for that we are guilty and will have to stand before Him on that day. You see, God doesn’t send you to hell for being homosexual, He’s sends people to hell because they have broken His Moral Law, leaving them guilty with no way of redeeming themselves. For you see, God is Holy and righteous and He demands perfection when it comes to keeping His law, and since non of us is perfect, that is why God sent His Son to earth, He lived a perfect sinless life and then He took our sin and our shame and guilt upon Himself and died in our place so that we could be forgiven and then He rose again from the grave on the 3rd day. Now what we have to do is repent, that is turn from our wicked ways and place our trust in Jesus Christ, in what He has done for us on the cross at Calvary.
Amen!
JakeD Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Steve:
If they won’t even believe in God, they surely won’t buy that was His Plan all along.
JakeD:
You’re right Jake. You know, I have never jumped into one of these dialogs online like this, but it breaks my heart for the those who’s hearts re so hardened. God’s Word nails it right on the head in Romans 1:28 where it says: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting.
keep up the good fight Jake, sharing the the truth in love, praying that some may come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved from everlasting punishment. Keep loving them enough to share the truth with them and they are accountable to God with what they do with it. Blessings.
Steve and Jake, please give us a list of your sins so that we may judge you also.
They’d make a cute couple, wouldn’t they?
Lizard OC,
instead of playing “I know you are but what am I” read Flews book. and don’t call people sanctimonious bigots, it makes you sound like a sanctimonious bigot.
God Bless, Steve.
Helen, I didn’t call anyone a sanctimonious bigot. I simply wondered aloud whether your God might, in fact, prefer people who love and cherish members of the same sex to those who are judgmental blowhards.
LizardOC:
I’m glad to hear you didn’t call me a sanctimonious bigot then ; )
Too bad you and Love the Hypocrites won’t answer simple questions, or we could actually have a civil discussion finally.
JakeD, did you really expect us to share personal information about ourselves and our neighbors?
Love the Hypocrites, hate the sin Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Steve and Jake, please give us a list of your sins so that we may judge you also.
Love the Hypocrites: Ahhh where to start. #1 Have I always made God number One in My life? Nope. Broke the first commandment.
#2 Have I ever made a carved image of a likeness of God? In my mind. In my imagination and made up a god that was to my likening, one that was easy to get along withand condoned any sinful thing I wanted to do. #3. Have I ever taken the name of God in vain? Yep, that’s called blasphemy and God will not hold those unaccountable who take His Holy name in vain. #4 Have I always set a day aside to just worship the Lord and rest in Him? Nooo. #5 Have I always honored my parents? Come on get real, who has?!? #6 Have I murdered anybody? Well Jesus said if you have anger at your brother you are guilt of murder in your heart and in danger of the judgment. Chalk me up to guilty on that one also. #7 Have I committed adultery? Jesus said, “If ou look at a woman with lust you are guilty of adultery in your heart.” Guilty as charged!! #8 Have I ever taken something that didn’t belong to me? Yep, that makes me a thief. #9 Have I ever told a lie? Uhh, yep, that makes me a liar. #10 Have I ever coveted my neighbors house or wife or Lexus or anything that belonged to somebody else. Well a, yes.
So I’ve just admitted that I’ve been a blasphemying, Idolator, lying, thief and a adulterer and murder at heart who’s coveted what wasn’t mine andI’m guilty before God of breaking everyone of His 10 Commandments and now some day He’s going to judge me based on how I kept His law. Would I be innocent or guilty in a court of law? I’d have to admit that I am guilty. So on judgment day would God send me to heaven or Hell. And mind you that the Bible says that no adulterer or liar or murderer shall inherit the kingdom of heaven and that all liars will have their place in the lake of fire. So like you, I’m in trouble. Here’s the difference, Jesus has come and paid the price for my sins, for my breaking of God’s Law and I believe that. Now admitting that I’d blown it and sinned was the hardest part, all of us wants to think that we are good people, but we’re not, we’ve broken God’s Law. But by turning from sin and placing our faith in Jesus Christ, He covers and washes away ours sins.
So yiou can go ahead a judge me if you want, I don’t care, for you see, my sinhas been completely judged and forgiven at the cross. Now, if you haven’t repented and trusted in Christ yet and you were to die today, you’d have to go before God and be judged in your sins and nobody passes that judgment.
LizardOC Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:03 pm
JakeD, did you really expect us to share personal information about ourselves and our neighbors?
Ohhh, now LizardOC, here I go and tell you I’m a lying, thieving, adulterer and murderer at heart, who blasphemed the name of God who has given me everything that is wonderful and dear in my life. I’ve admitted my failings and short comings on the WWW and now you won’t??? Well guess what, ..Jesus knows everything about you, your thoughts, your deeds, your motives, your actions, all of them, and He also knows that you are guilty just like me. Merry Christmas. This is why God sent us the Savior.
Wow, Steve you’re truly a mess. You may want to get your own house in order before preaching to others.
You know, sin is a choice. Love the sinner hate the sin, I guess.
Abracadabra, presto change-o, how convenient your sins are washed free. I pity the poor souls that have never heard of Jesus and aren’t quite as lucky!
Ignore that banging sound. It’s just my head hitting the wall repeatedly.
Jake, why does Saddleback Church, knowing it goes against the command of Jesus, remarry people that by his laws are not allowed to remarry.
The church is sinning and disobeying Jesus. How does the church itself repent?
Love the Hypocrites, hate the sin Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Wow, Steve you’re truly a mess. You may want to get your own house in order before preaching to others.
You know, sin is a choice. Love the sinner hate the sin, I guess.
Abracadabra, presto change-o, how convenient your sins are washed free. I pity the poor souls that have never heard of Jesus and aren’t quite as lucky!
Me too LizardOC, me too, that was all past life before Christ, been living in relation with him for 22 years. He’s changed my life…. Not that I have arrived, for none of us have, not until we get to the otherside of eternity, hope to see you there someday….
JakeD says “God only allowed for divorce because of the hardness of man’s heart to forgive one another.”
It seems that you guys are having a hard time forgiving gays for not being like you. Don’t you think he’ll allow for the marriage of gays so that everybody would have equal rights?
Steve, that comment was from Love the Hypopcrites, not from me.
Warren, JakeD can offer you an imaginatively contorted explanation for any Bible verse he personally chooses to disobey, but don’t worry, he’s a hard-line traditionalist when it comes to the ones that the people he doesn’t like choose to disobey.
I’m sorry but all of this preaching is getting tiresome.Face it,you will not convert us ,we do not want or need your prayers.
Can you imagine if I started babbling verses from the Koran to you and told you that you were going to hell because you wouldn’t heed the “word” how insulted you would be.How insulted you would be if I said I would pray for you.How patronizing !
We appreciate your concern but be pleased that you have a “lock” on the truth and be as smug as you like but don’t presume to save those who don’t share your views.
Your absolute faith in your religion leads you to demean those who do not share it.
I am a good person and if there is a heaven, I’ll be there which is more than I can say for some of you.
Warren Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:29 pm
JakeD says “God only allowed for divorce because of the hardness of man’s heart to forgive one another.”
It seems that you guys are having a hard time forgiving gays for not being like you. Don’t you think he’ll allow for the marriage of gays so that everybody would have equal rights?
Warren:
God never intended for men to marry men, or women to mary women. Bottom line, this is not about equal rights, nor gay marriage, it’s about power and you know it. It’s already been mentioned in this dialog that “homosexuality is better that heterosexuality” and eventually that will be the push. It’s going to be coming out more and more in the media that homosexuality is superior to heterosexuality and it will be forced on people. Well Jesus said to His disciples that we are to be the salt of the earth and light of the world, and in Jesus day they didn’t have refrigeration and so they’d use salt as a preserving for their food. Christians who stand up for the righteousness of Gods Word are the preserving agents of what’s true and noble and just and pure and right as found in the Word of God.
As far as having a hard time forgiving gays, I haven’t had any gays sin against me to the point that I need to forgive them, well, except for the one time when a homosexual who worked in a well known dept store in SoCal tried to come in the dressing room when I was trying on clothes. I didn’t appreciate his forwardness and I let him know it. You know, it’s a sad day in America when a man can’t try on a pair of pants at a store without being approached.
People, we need revival in America!
mensarino Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:40 pm
I’m sorry but all of this preaching is getting tiresome.Face it,you will not convert us ,we do not want or need your prayers.
Can you imagine if I started babbling verses from the Koran to you and told you that you were going to hell because you wouldn’t heed the “word” how insulted you would be.How insulted you would be if I said I would pray for you.How patronizing !
We appreciate your concern but be pleased that you have a “lock” on the truth and be as smug as you like but don’t presume to save those who don’t share your views.
Your absolute faith in your religion leads you to demean those who do not share it.
I am a good person and if there is a heaven, I’ll be there which is more than I can say for some of you.
mensarino: For being a good person that sounded pretty mean.
Steve said: “God never intended for men to marry men, or women to mary women. ”
At the same time God did not intend for married couples to divorce, he gave an exception for ADULTERY. He also has from what Jesus said strict laws on remarriage which 99% of all churches ignore. You blow it off like its something you can get a waiver on by claiming repenting. But that’s not what the Bible says!
You don’t see any anti divorce propitiations, no excluding divorced people from church membership, no mocking the sin, no protests on the courthouse steps protesting a divorce, no religious anti-divorce campaigns, no ugly names for divorced people, and no shouts of “its in the Bible!”
I have never met an adulterer who said he was kicked out of his church and told he could not remarry.
No,pretty fed up with you judgmental types trying to enlighten me how to believe.I’ve made it 60 plus years without your unsolicited help.
I realize it may reward your martyr complex to have people yell at you for your brazen attempts to convert us but please share your faith with fellow believers and leave the rest of us alone unless weask for your advice as to the road to salvation.
It is so very presumptuous to insist on sharing your religion when not asked and to then pity us for not sharing your vision.
Save us from our saviors.At least I do good without expecting a heavenly payoff.I do no evil because of my moral compass,not because I fear a fiery inferno.
(Sorry that should have said “You don’t see any anti divorce PROPOSITIONS.”)
mensarino Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:10 pm
No,pretty fed up with you judgmental types trying to enlighten me how to believe.I’ve made it 60 plus years without your unsolicited help.
I realize it may reward your martyr complex to have people yell at you for your brazen attempts to convert us but please share your faith with fellow believers and leave the rest of us alone unless weask for your advice as to the road to salvation.
It is so very presumptuous to insist on sharing your religion when not asked and to then pity us for not sharing your vision.
Save us from our saviors.At least I do good without expecting a heavenly payoff.I do no evil because of my moral compass,not because I fear a fiery inferno.
Mensarino:
Mensarino, people like you give me a reason to stop banging my head against the wall. Thanks.
Lizardoc—You are welcome.I appreciate your posts as well.
We can only fight injustice wherever we see it and these holier than thou types like to think they have the moral high ground when in reality they are nothing but latter day Pharisees.
Love the Hypocrites, hate the sin Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:14 pm
(Sorry that should have said “You don’t see any anti divorce PROPOSITIONS.”)
Hey Love the Hyps, divorce is not right, it is a result of sin and God hates it, that’s right out of Malichi. At the same time he allows for it and it is not the unpardonable sin, neither is homosexuality for that matter. And like homosexuality the sin of divorce is a fact of life in this fallen world. Now this may be a news flash to you, but the church is comprised of sinful people. It’s not a museum for perfect people. It’s more of a hospital for sinners. Now here’s another news flash, not every person who attends a church is a Christian. Jesus said there will be tares in among the wheat and goats in among the sheep. He said that the angels will sort them out in that day. The church is a place where sinful people should be able to come and be ministered to and loved and encouraged in their relaionship with God through Jesus Christ and to repent, no matter what their sin may be, btw, it’s the goodness of God that leads a person to repentance.
Now for your issue with divorce, it’s true, Christian couples that divorced without solid Biblical grounds, Biblically should not be allowed to remarry. That is why we have applications to be filled and premarital counseling at the church I attend. If the couple has a divorce in the history they have to explain the circumstances and if they aren’t Biblical, the wedding ceremony won’t be perfomed, but what’s to stop them from running to Vegas and getting married. Again, just like Jesus said in the last days, “People will be marrying and giving in marriage just as the days of Noah.”
But hey, I’m with you on this one, I’d love to see laws on the books that would make divorce harder to obtain.
The religious basis of the arguments against same sex marriage is disturbing. What the bible says or does not say should should not be the province of civil law and certainly should not be the basis upon which to ascertain the rights of citizens of a non-theistic republic. Many sectors of religious belief require their followers to adopt hook, line, and sinker the “infallable, inspired, inerrant Word of God” or else face either damnation or severe divine disapproval. There is not much room for the development of rationale arguements here. It’s no wonder that guided by these dooms day scenarios - gay marriage will lead to the collapse of society, the destruction of children, etc. that some religious people hurl themselves to the cause with the fervor of those Iranian human waves who were plowed down by Iraqi forces in the Iran-Iraq war. Religious fear is further fueled by an innate internal struggle between chaos and order. Belief provides order…. a way of understanding everything in very minute details (especially for more evangelicals and fundamental types). Everything has to line up or else chaos threatens. This is why many religious people are compelled to “fight to the death” to defend the world from same sex marriage. While seemingly a periphery issue (when compared to fundamentals of the faith, resurrection, virgin birth etc.), in light of the above, it becomes the “straw that will break the camel’s back.” To mix metaphors, there cannot be a weak link or else the whole house comes tumbling down and they may find that in the end chaos and uncertainty are in fact a part of the human condition.
Steve:
I’m with you. Yes, we do need revival, and we need to stick together. The margin was slim this time, and we need to continue to work smarter, and more with the Spirit. I am very thankful that you are participating.
Keep drinking the kool -aide.
LizardOC,
don’t call people judgemental blowhards either, it makes you sound like a judgemental blowhard.
Craig (in case you missed the questions I asked you):
Your “God” teaches love and acceptance of adultery? How about acceptance of child abuse or polygamy? Which “God” is that?
mensarino Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 6:19 am
Keep drinking the kool -aide.
Hey Mr. Mensa, can’t youc ome up with something better than that, sounds pretty childish?
mensarino Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Lizardoc—You are welcome.I appreciate your posts as well.
We can only fight injustice wherever we see it and these holier than thou types like to think they have the moral high ground when in reality they are nothing but latter day Pharisees.
Again Mr. Mensa, I’ve already declared I’m a sinner and have broken every one of Gods commandments. That’s something that the Pharisees in Jesus day wouldn’t admit to, they thought they were holier than Jesus. I’ve cried out to God to be merciful to me a sinner and I have experienced the grace of God in my life. So again, your argument and comparison of me to a Pharisee doesnt hold water.
What you need Mr. Mensa is to humble yourself of your pride for God hates pride the Bible says. The Bible says there is a way that seems right to a man but its end is destruction. You may be very intelligent but you’re leaning to your own finite wisdom while God’s is infinite and all knowing. But hey, the widom of God is foolishness to those who are perishing.
No,stevie,but the Pharisees sure did a lot of judging and preaching.
I don’t preach to you to leave your god, so stop preaching to me to join him.
mensarino Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 8:57 am
No,stevie,but the Pharisees sure did a lot of judging and preaching.
I don’t preach to you to leave your god, so stop preaching to me to join him.
Okay.
mensarino:
Jesus Christ gave us the Great Commission to make disciples of all nations.
Steve—Thank you
Jake–Please follow Steve’s lead as it pertains to me.There are other fields you can plow.Thanks
“Progress”:
I have given plenty of secular reasons for prohibiting same-sex marriage. It is irrelevant whether I also have religious reasons.
I appreciate your secular reasoning,although I hearily disagree.At least we have common reference points from which we can have intelligent debate.
It is the religious debate I find futile since we do not share a common basis for our discussions.
I do wish you and Steve well and understand that from your perspective you are trying to “save” me.
Good bye,, mesarino. Take care of yourself.
mensarino Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 9:24 am
I appreciate your secular reasoning,although I hearily disagree.At least we have common reference points from which we can have intelligent debate.
It is the religious debate I find futile since we do not share a common basis for our discussions.
I do wish you and Steve well and understand that from your perspective you are trying to “save” me.
Mensarino, last thing and I’ll move on. I don’t save anyone. Jesus saves. He’s commanded the church, to preach the gospel, for it is through the foolishness of preaching that man hears the good news and can respond and be saved. But I again, neither Jake nor I, nor any other Christian saves anybody, we share because we truly care about your eternal well being. Thanks for the discussion.
Steve and Jake—-Thank you both,I have enjoyed the discussion.
I sincerely hope you have a happy holiday and a prosperous new year.
Getting back to the post by “Progress”, I certainly agree that chaos and uncertainty are in fact a part of the human condition (this side of eternity, at least, but you don’t want to discuss that ; ) But why knowingly — or even unwittingly — make it worse? Every culture that has embraced homosexual behavior has ended. That’s a historic fact. If you don’t want to learn from history, can we at least let foreign nations “experiment” first with same-sex marriage for a couple generations to see what impact it will have?
BTW: “religious” people are not the only ones with DOOMSDAY scenarios — just look at the global warming extermists — but just one horrible possibility (already mentioned) from same-sex marriage is that the State of California stops issuing any “marriage” licenses and makes everyone “domestic partners”. Do you really want that? And, that’s not even the “worst-case” secular scenario. Would you agree that every person “mating” with someone of the same sex would literaly wipe out civilization withing just a few generations? Even Rome didn’t get that bad, and we all know about the fall of said Empire. Unfortunately, those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.
The most immediate and likely impact — as I stated above — would be that public school children (without the consent of their parents) will be indoctrinated that same-sex marriage is OK (just look at Massachusetts). Not a great idea given how impressionable first graders are. While you may think “the desctruction of children” is a laughing matter, I don’t. Homosexual men, for instance, have a much shorter life expectancy than happily married heterosexual men. That’s just a fact, and something that society should not seek to add MORE chaos and uncertainty to. As always, YMMV ; )
withing = within & desctruction = destruction (darn Spellchecker)
Jake–
Many factors led to the fall of Greece and Rome.One cannot claim that the acceptance of homosexualiy was the key reason for their decline.
I would prefer that all coupling be civil unions with ALL of the state and federal benefits currently afforded marriages.Then, any church that so desired could perform a religious validation of that union, if it and the couple so desired.Then those who made that choice could call themselves “married”
Your hypothetical regarding the extinction of the species due to homosexuality is absurd.Straights always have and always will vastly outnumber gays.
Age appropriate discussion regarding marriage patterns in society would take place within the appropriate curriculum in a factual manner.
One reason gays die earlier could be due to a largely homophobic culture which degrades,demeans and discriminates against them.
Thanks for the “secular” debate.We can certainly disagree within a shared framework this way.We won’t sway one another but at least it allows for greater civility.
Thanks !
One can, indeed, claim that the acceptance of homosexualiy was the key reason for their fall (just as I would claim regarding the fall of Sodom and Gomorrah ; )
Have a happy holiday and a prosperous new year too.
Steve and JakeD: I appreciate both of your efforts, and I agree with your statements. The scriptures are excellent examples of how societies prosper and decline due to embracing, and not embracing, moral practices. I think that we can find these similarities in all religions, because there are elements of truth in them all. Finding these common fundamental truths will help our cause so that our society does not fall victim to selfishness.
Most people misinterpret the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah. The main lesson had to do with people being inhospitable to strangers rather than anything to do with sexuality.
It has been sexualized over the years and revisions to address the church’s view of the homosexual “menace”.
JakeD-
(To clarify something about 100 posts ago)
The Berdache and the Achnueks are not tribes, those are the words for the homosexuals in certain native tribes. In the American Indian culture, these homosexuals are a blessing– for example, as most of us can only view the world from one lens (either as a female or male), the berdache have the ability to view the world from both, which, to them, is a well respected endeavor.
If boys seem more like girls, and vice versa, they immediately take the other role to better fit their “spirit”. This improves the tribe spiritually and economically.
This is more of a sex-positive society, whereas America, is more sex-negative. We concentrate on sex solely for reproduction, and they see sex as a spiritual enterprise.
In hunter-gather societies, it is beneficial to have a limited number of infants (to maintain the mobility of the tribe), therefore alternative methods of sex, homosexual intercourse, or birthcontrol, establishing taboos against recently pregnant women, are put into practice. Homosexuality serves as a group benefit in huntergatherer societies, and as a disservice to agrarian societies who benefit by having more children to work on the farm.
As you can tell, we are in no way like these societies, except the fact we are way overpopulated which is bringing the standard of living down for everyone and polluting our earth. Our population has more than tripled since 1920. And you mentioned you believe in global warming– it’s beneficial to accept alternative means of relationships that do not contribute to the decay of our planet.
LOL! Of course, the “inhospitable” behavior Bill is referring to was threatened homosexual rape. You guys are so funny.
LdsDan, some of us would contend that using political muscle to ensure that a long-oppressed minority loses its hard-won access to the same rights you’ve enjoyed for many years….would constitute selfishness.
It’s all in how you look at it, hmm?
Steve and Jake, if you feel that God wants you to “go and make of all believers,” how do you reconcile the fact that you’re not very good at it? Doesn’t it anger God when your smug illogic deters people from exploring a path that might lead them to Christianity? Wouldn’t your results be better (and your God therefore be happier) if you simply lived out your faith through good works and quiet examples?
In other news:
After weeks of preparations for the largest sex event of its kind in Israel, organizers were forced to cancel it this week due to public pressure exerted on the owner of the venue where the sex fest was to take place.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3642845,00.html
Also, these societies haven’t been manipulated by Christianity..one can probably tell.
Also, most important to these societies– morality is not measured by with whom and when one reaches orgasm, but by their level of compassion, understanding, and selflessness.
LdsDan:
Don’t worry — we will keep fighting — for instance, I don’t know if you approve of polygamy, but if the rest of us some day objected to, and legally took away hard-earned rights of polygamists, I can imagine that they would be upset too. Some may even call US “selfish” ; )
LizardOC:
Like I said, answer my question to you above, and I will be more than happy to answer your questions to me.
Jake, you nitwit, has it occurred to you that the RAPE might have been the problem, not the homosexuality? How about the sexual assault of Lot’s daughters in the same story? (Oh, sorry, the Bible doesn’t seem to have much of a problem with that.) How typical that the Jakes of the world uses this story as an injunction against consenting, loving gays and lesbians, but not against rapists and sexual predators. Methinks you’re desperate to lend scriptural credence to your deep-down sense that gay sex is icky.
If same-sex relations were the chief sin of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, by the way, why aren’t they mentioned in the Wisdom of Solomon? See 19:13-14…..seems like Solomon missed a perfect opportunity to clarify exactly what was so wicked about those naughty Sodomites.
Jake, which of your creepy questions did you need answered? I’ve lost track.
Which Sunday service did you and your girlfriend attend?
LizardOC-
According to the Bible, women are also second class citizens.. so, they ought to be subject to rape, oppression, violence, molestation, and stoning.
Nope, the real problem here, is consensual gay sex…it is just so much worse.
Why do you want so desperately to know? Are you planning to check up on us?
steve says: “Bottom line, this is not about equal rights, nor gay marriage, it’s about power and you know it. ”
Steve in my opinion it has always been about equal rights. This country has a history of discrimination against others who are not like the majority. The similarity of discrimination based on race and ones sexual orientation is so compelling it can not be denied.
Actually, Warren, Steve is right, but not in the way he thinks he is: It’s about privileged homophobes not wanting to cede the power they’ve always been able to take for granted. They can’t stand it when uppity minorities have the gall to want to be treated as equals.
LizardOC Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Steve and Jake, if you feel that God wants you to “go and make of all believers,” how do you reconcile the fact that you’re not very good at it? Doesn’t it anger God when your smug illogic deters people from exploring a path that might lead them to Christianity? Wouldn’t your results be better (and your God therefore be happier) if you simply lived out your faith through good works and quiet examples?
LizardOC: Again, I don’t “make believer’s”, God makes belivers of people who’s hearts are receptive to the gospel truth. All we are called to do is be faithful and hearld the message, and leave the results up to Him. Perhaps you’re not repsonding to the gospel that has been proclaimed in this dialog, but no doubt there’s countless other’s who are reading this and for some the light may on, for many are called but few are choosen, broad is the path that leads to destruction and many there are that are on it, but narrow is the way that leads to life and few that find it. LizardOC, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, get yourself a Bible and before you read it, pray and ask God to reveal His truth to you from the pages of His divine book.
Steve, chill. I have worked in a church for the last 15 years. I’m well acquainted with Christianity, and I thank god every day that I work and pray among believers whose faith guides them toward compassion and generosity, not discrimination and sanctimony.
I read about a place in the south pacific that was similar to The Berdache and the Achnueks. It was a great honor for a guy to be chosen to be the “one” who was “special” for other guys. It was also a powerful position. I read about it in the Reader’s Digest back in the earily 80s.
Warren-
Yes, those societies are also more sex-positive. They also view women as equals- mentally and economically- sometimes superior. That’s probably why it is not a great dissapointment to be feminine-like.
Some theorists in anthropology conclude that once a society fully accepts women as equals, they are more likely to accept homosexuality.
I was actually just watching tropic thunder, and the gay black guy overcompensates by singing with half-naked women about “pssy juice”, unfortunately exploiting them because he is not accepted by this patriarchial/homophobic/christian society.
seneca:
I quoted “Tropic Thunder” above ; )
LizardOC Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Methinks you’re desperate to lend scriptural credence to your deep-down sense that gay sex is icky.
Again, LizardOC, God declares in His Word that homosexuality goes against nature. Get a Bible and open it up to Romans Chapter 1 and read and see what it says for yourself, I didn’t make it up. The word “Icky” doesn’t quite describe the perversion that takes place when a man lies with another man, or a woman with a woman. The Bible calls it “perverted”, which means “twisted”. It’s twisting the act that God means for a husband and a wife. Anatomically the male body is not designed for this unnatural act, with another man nor the womans body with another woman. Homosexual men die of diseases contracted from anal intercourse that affects the bowels. The promiscuity in the highly sex charged gay population also leads to a much greater degree of contracting a fatal disease. To say that the shorter life expectancy of gay men is the fault of the so called “homophobes” has no truth to it whatsoever. It has everything to do with the unnatural acts against nature that the homosexuals are committing.
Dude, NOT having sex is against nature. Thats why Catholic priests have to take it out on innocent children.
STD’s affect all people who practice unsafe sex.
Just for the record, studies show that the number one sexual activity practiced by gay males is oral, not anal.
Condoms, not abstinence or celibacy is the answer.
Well, Steve, to the extent homosexuals feel “ashamed” and “forced” by society [convicted by the Holy Spirit] into risky, unprotected sex, they have to blame someone other than themselves.
So, Steve, you must be totally fine with lesbianism, which is by far the safest kind of sexual relationship from a medical perspective.
Trust me—you’re not going to come up with an argument I haven’t heard before. I’ve been dealing with homophobes for a long time.
mensarino:
I have no problems with condoms (for married couples). Theoretically, however, abstinence is the only 100% effective answer to STDs ; )
JakeD, your obsession with other people’s sex lives would be hilarious if it weren’t so….deviant.
mensarino Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
STD’s affect all people who practice unsafe sex.
STD’s do not affect faithful monogamus heterosexual couples .
Jake—You and I finally agree on something,abstinence IS the only 100% safeguard against contracting an std.Where we disagree is how realistic that scenario is in the real world.
STD’s do not affect faithful monogamus homosexual couples .
LizardOC:
I’m not obsessed with your sex life. I asked you a simple question (repeatedly) in order to report the sin of INHOSPITABILITY to the proper authority (see how it all comes together, just not in Israel ; )
Steve—I said UNSAFE.You wouldn’t need a condom if you were 100% sure of your partner.
To be 10000000% safe even wear a condom if your partner recently had a blood transfusion ,used a needle,shared a razor,got a tattoo from a questionably clean parlor—gets scary,huh—-lol
Sorry,that post was to bill, my bad
Mensarino-
I agree with you 100%. Religious people have a very normative view of the world–in practice, however, it fails everytime.
With all the awareness nowadays, all my educated gay friends practice very safe sex.
And Steve-
HIV AIDS can affect faithful monogamus heterosexual couples; just as it did a couple of decades ago with untested blood transfusions.
Again, awareness of safety and availability of birthcontrol, is most ideal for our society.. not fear, blame, and unneccesary guilt.
Jake, give it a rest. I’m perfectly capable of addressing the inhospitality issue myself (though I’m sure you’re earnestly eager to approach the Saddleback authorities about making the place more welcoming to gays—snort), and I’m not about to divulge any more personal information to a prurient inquisitor on the internet.
mensarino:
I doubt we disagree about how realistic that scenario is in the real (fallen) world. I’d estimate somewhere between 5-10% of the population remain virgins until marriage.
“Steve Says STD’s do not affect faithful monogamus heterosexual couples ”
What about the faithful monogamus heterosexual drug users? LOL… Steve you think inside of a small box.
JakeD-
Then 80% of those marriages end in divorce
LizardOC:
As I said, above, no skin off my nose if you don’t want to answer. Just don’t expect me to keep answering your questions when you won’t return the same courtesy.
seneca:
That’s not true — in fact, all first time marriages have a low divorce rate — it’s the second and third time marriages that have an astronomical divorce rate that raises the overall rate to 50%.
Jake, I think it’s obvious to just about everyone here that my questions to you are chiefly rhetorical, that your answers are entirely predictable whether you type them out or not, and that you fall back upon your little “I’m not talking to you until you tell me your neighbor’s name!” games when you’ve run out of ammunition. Carry on.
mensarino:
Were you able to predict my agreement with you?
JakeD-
If only you could prove somehow that those first timers where virgins beforehand. They probably are more experienced with more relationships to know how to sustain a good one.
All the kids who did the “Oops, I’m christian and we just screwed, lets get married” have gotten married so much younger and failed earlier, too.
This, to me, is empirical common sense , as opposed to quantitative skewed statistics.
seneca:
Doesn’t premarital sex lead to a HIGHER divorce rate than those couples who follow God’s rules about marriage AND divorce (I think I heard that from Dr. Laura, so don’t quote me).
I’m agreeing with you that people who have premarital sex have higher divorce rate.
Conservatively, it’s estimated that 35% of first marriages end in separation or divorce before they reach their 15th anniversary. Not such a low number in my book.
Jake, you might like to know that the state with the LOWEST divorce rate in the nation is the godless liberal commonwealth of….Massachusetts.
35% is lower than 50% average, and certainly lower than second or third marriages ending in divorce 80-85% of the time. Besides, my point is that Christians who follow God’s rules about marriage AND divorce end up much lower than 35%.
P.S. to seneca: I agree that self-reporting “virgins” pose certain statistical problems.
mensarino Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Steve—I said UNSAFE.You wouldn’t need a condom if you were 100% sure of your partner.
To be 10000000% safe even wear a condom if your partner recently had a blood transfusion ,used a needle,shared a razor,got a tattoo from a questionably clean parlor—gets scary,huh—-lol
What, are you scared of dying?!?
Having been married for over 20 years and having 4 children, I think I now a thing or 2 about sex. Also having been a paramedic for many years and running calls on homosexuals in the OC and witnessing the things they have done to themselves in their deviant practices, std’s aren’ the only thing killing them early. And yes, I witnessed calls where heterosexuals were hurting and even killing their partner. Folks, it comes back to sin and the death and destruction that it brings. It’s time to get right with God.
Good lord, Jake, what you don’t know about statistics and logic could fill a book. Correlation does not imply causality. Even if we accept the premise that people who have premarital sex also have a higher divorce rate, that in NO way indicates that the former LEADS TO the latter. It’s just as likely, for example, that people with strict religious codes that forbid premarital sex also have strict religious codes that forbid divorce. I’d wager that lots of them are simply living quietly miserable lives in unhappy marriages.
And….Dr. Laura? Seriously? Hee.
JakeD-
I HATE Doctor Laura more than anything.. so I wouldn’t know what BS she preaches. Although, I do know she tells (and yells) at all her pathetic followers how to live their lives and chastises all of them. She also says that cohabitating before marriage leads to divorce.
When I was 18 when I “cohabited” with my boyfriend. We are still cohabiting 3 years later. Marriage is a joke- I don’t have to prove our love- we know it’s there. Plus this prop 8 deal, has turned me off from marriage. Also, I get free college for being the dependent of my parents =).
I don’t think I’ll ever get married unless the tax benefit is really good, to tell the truth. But, one thing is sure, I will never leave or be dishonest to the greatest man in the world (my boyfriend) and our relationship is much more valid and honest than most married couples.
Isn’t it “common sense” that 1,000 Christian couples who follow God’s rules about marriage AND divorce have a near ZERO percent divorce rate? Maybe I am missing something here.
Regardless of whether Dr. Laura said so or not.
Warren Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
“Steve Says STD’s do not affect faithful monogamus heterosexual couples ”
What about the faithful monogamus heterosexual drug users? LOL… Steve you think inside of a small box.
What part of the word “Faithful” don’t you understand? Perhaps all of it.
A faithful, God loving, God fearing, spouse would not want to do anything that could/would bring harm to their spouse. Including IV drug use. Now a blood transfusion is a different story. But really what’s this got to do with the article in question?
Jake, I’m suggesting that “zero percent divorce” is an entirely different, and far less worthy, goal than “100 percent happy marriages.” The longevity of a relationship is not, in itself, a virtue.
If anyone else is wondering why I am not answering LizardOC’s questions (rhetorical or “serious”) anymore, please let me know.
When gay people can marry, then I will get married =)
Back to “seneca”:
In God’s eyes, you are already “married”. Hate to break the bad news ; )
Let’s ask the MENSA member:
Isn’t it “common sense” that 1,000 Christian couples who follow God’s rules about marriage AND divorce have a near ZERO percent divorce rate?
JakeD-
Why is that? I never said my vows to went to court to sign a document.
In God’s eyes, I’m having premarital sex. And I’m happy about it =)
seneca:
In God’s eyes, you are sinning but also “married” to whomever you first have sex with. I am on my iPhone, so I don’t have the verse handy. Steve or LdsDan, can you back me up on that?
God is so fortunate to have Jake as his attorney!
Oh,
Then in that case, I’m “married” to my first boyfriend when I was 17.
But, I’m ironically forever double-sinning with my immediate boyfriend…oh sweet sin.
I am, actually, the Devil’s Advocate.
Exactly, you are an adulteress.
Mazel tov, seneca!
JakeD-
Sweet.. I am also wearing mixed fibers and ate shellfish last week. I better add “adulteress” to my list of sins (even though I’m not married or ever cheated).
Not really a good representation of logic.. or “secular law”.
Congratulating each other in sin, amazing.
Baby Jesus, come back SOON!
Uh, Jake, I was congratulating her on her marriage.
(Like Ricky Bobby, I prefer praying to the Baby Jesus ; )
Here, Jake, a little scripture to calm you down:
‘And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”’
JakeD-
Eating shellfish, wearing mixed fibers, and having hormones does not make people “bad people”.
I’ve seen more sinners who attend church..and some with the most perverse extreme “sins”–that’s why they are at church (the other extreme). The key is to find a happy medium; it’s much healthier.
Moderation is key.
Thanks for congratulating me on my teenage marriage. I never got a ring, though =(
seneca:
I never said that eating shellfish, wearing mixed fibers, or having hormones makes you a “bad person”; nor was I the one congratulating you on your teenage marriage.
Jake—under your scenario, that could ,could, be true of any committed couple in any kind of relationship who are of any religion or no religion.The key is faithful commitment.
Your games are so transparent and easily dismissed.
So, that’s THREE in a row we agree on?!
JakeD-
I was thanking LizardOC.
And your comment was “congratulating eachother on SINS”..
As you must know, eating shellfish and wearing mixed fibers are all sins, which inadvertantly makes me a bad person… and an adulteress =)
Your 1:37 pm post was addressed to me and Old Testament ceremonial laws no longer apply to Christians (ergo the confusion).
Mensarino-
Don’t know if you remember me, my other name is JannaBob =).
Good to see you in here
Hi jannabob,so nice to see you!
Keep on keepin’ on,I am so vey proud of the good fight you wage.
Oh, no! Now “mensarino” is not answering my questions either. How will I carry on (that’s rhetorical)?
People of Christian faith have many differing views of the bible and what constitutes a “good Christian.” People of other faiths have different views of what consittutes scripture, meaning of life, god etc. Debating exegetical points is a very limited and somewhat futile way of deciding the issue of same-sex marriage. This is not a theocracy. All citizens of this state deserve to be free from the binding theological contructs of particular sects. In my view-certain interesting secular points notwithstanding-once you remove the religous question from the equation, any rational basis for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples dissolves.
Mensarino-
Thanks, someone’s gotta take out the trash eventually ; )
I hope you have a great Xmas, I’m headed to San Diego.
I’m sure I’ll talk to you soon, see ya!
JakeD- I have to go celebrate the mutilation of what once was a religious holiday but evolved into something secular. I love Xmas!
Have a good one, everyone. Bye
“Progress”:
Did you see my posts to you above?
P.S. to seneca:
God Bless.
“Progress”:
9:13 am and 9:34 am.
Jake—I have been in and out of the house.What question did I ignore?
I was just joking about the “three times in a row” we have now agreed (unless I am missing something again).
1) Abstinence is the only 100% safeguard.
2) Only 5-10% of the population remained “virgins” until marriage.
3) 1,000 Christian (or any “faithfully committed”) couples have near ZERO percent divorce rate.
Jake–
1–I generally agree but one can contract a sexually transmitted disease in a non-sexual manner i.e. sharing needles etc.
2-I do not know of a study on that matter but it wouldn’t surprise me.
3-I don’t know if you could ever achieve near 0 but the odds would certainly be on their side.
See, we can agree once in a while—lol
Everyone else (other than LizardOC):
I do want to address her questions, rhetorical or not, even though she clearly refuses to answer my questions.
First, no one but God knows whether Steve and I are “good” at loving our neighbor, evangelism, good works or quiet examples — as Steve rightly stated, we only plant the seeds and the Holy Spirit is The One responsible for saving souls — for my part, personally, none of the arguments I am engaged in here is to convince my debating opponents. They don’t care about the actual answers. They have hardened their hearts to God, and I’m only trying to reach those lurkers who are going down the same track before it’s too late. I would never get into an argument with someone honestly seeking the truth. As Steve said, “Get a Bible” yourself and pray that God shows you The Way.
Whether those like LizardOC want to believe it or not, anyone who rejects God has lost his or her soul and, unfortunately, will not inherit the kingdon of Heaven — but that does not “anger” God — in fact, His heart is breaking when they reject the FREE GIFT of salvation, paid by the death of His Son, Jesus Christ on the Cross. You would think LizardOC would know all of this if she is so “well acquainted with Christianity”.
For those of you who were wondering, though, the Wisdom of Solomon is one of the “Deuterocanonical books” and not an accepted part of the Bible (like “Progress” just pointed out — this theological debate is not the proper basis for secular law — I’m Protestant, but I would never want a theocracy). The obvious sin of homosexuality, however, would not need to be mentioned to the JEWISH audience because they already knew the story about those naughty Sodomites. 19:13-14 focuses on inhospitability since that applies to ALL of us, hetero- or homosexual. I have no problem saying that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of its selfish and inhospitable people, specifically manifested by the homosexuals. Even heterosexuals (as she claims happened at Saddleback) can fall prey to those sins. But, the book’s author (and God) doesn’t miss anything by not mentioning the word “homosexual” EVERY time the word “Sodomite” is referenced. That would be a given.
All that being said, I am neither a “nitwit” nor “illogical” (but, I guess that’s just LizardOC’s “compassion and generosity” showing). Trust me, every objection she has to the Bible has been dealt with for over two centuries now. There’s no new question under the sun about the Bible. Just because things like slavery or sexual assault of females are included in the Bible doesn’t mean God approves of that. How typical that the LizardOC’s of the world use these stories as proof that God condones that behavior as well as “consenting, loving homosexuals” (I just couldn’t resist that one ; )
Merry Christmas, guys.
mensarino:
I also asked you, above “Were you able to predict my agreement with you?”
Jake—-We simply agree to disagree.
Have a happy holiday!
On that particular question of % of virgins when wed?
Yes, because I figure you think it’s such a fallen world that that the# would be low.
I personally do not see sex as a moral issue unless cheating on one’s committed other.It would also have to be consensual and the participants of age.Beyond those guidelines I am very liberal when it comes to sex.
JakeD, your need to mock the phrase “consenting, loving [gays and lesbians]” tells us everything that really matters about you and your narrow worldview. There is no room in your cold, hard philosophy for any kind of love that doesn’t look like yours.
Thank God that your kind is a dying breed. I can enjoy sparring with people like you because I know that change is on the way, since youunger generations—increasingly freed the chains of bigotry, which bind both the oppressed and the oppressor—overwhelmingly favor equality over discrimination.
I’m off to church. JakeD, I’ll say a prayer for you.
That would be “younger” and “freed FROM the chains”……
For the record, there’s no room in my cold, hard philosophy for any kind of sexual “love” between siblings, parents and offspring, adults and minors, or a man and multiple “wives” either.
I guess “Progress” isn’t still around?
Huh?
I asked someone posting as “Progress” some questions this morning.
Steve, according to webster the word god isn’t included in the definition for faithful.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faithful
Warren Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Steve, according to webster the word god isn’t included in the definition for faithful.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faithful
Your right and it’s not in the vast majority of homosexuals lives either.
Check it out Warren
God’s Word says in Romans 1:22 Professing to be wise they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man.
That is people will reject the True and Living God and make up a false of their own likening from their own imagination. One that would never say anything that they are doing is wrong, that whatever they are into is perfectly acceptable. And God says its a fool who does this, they aren’t dealing with reality.
Then it goes on to say in vs. 24: Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the LIE, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
There are those who are just bent on living this way and God being omniscient, He knows that they aren’t going to repent so look what happens in the next vs. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And here it is, how those who live this lifestyle don’t have the true God in their knowledge, vs. 28 says: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
It’s as if God says, “Hey, you’re not going to repent, fine, that’s your choice, do what not fitting and see where it gets you.”
Vs. 29 says: being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving,
unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
I have witnessed everyone of these behaviors coming from the homosexual community and like I said earlier, I’ve even been to the murder scenes in my former line of work.
I now pastor a church and have for many years and I have men in my fellowship who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle. And their very words were, “It’s as if I’ve been liberated”, they have told me that it is such a deceptive lifestyle and that they kneit was sin but they were just caught up in. There said that there are many out there who are in this lifestyle that know that it is destructive and want to come out of it. Those are the ones who’s hearts have not been hardened to the point of no return and to them there is hope and it is found in Jesus Christ and Him alone. Merry Christmas, Christ has come to seek and to save that which is lost.
JakeD - Thanks for hanging in there. Just to let you know, as a Latter-day Saint, we do not believe in polygamy. It is not condoned by God.
We have not practiced polygamy since 1890. Before that, it was necessary, because there were many more women than men. The men had been killed while protecting their families. Then, the government felt it was necessary to outlaw polygamy. The government was going to take away all of the LDS Church’s property and the ability to function. One of our Articles of Faith is to obey the law of the land. Therefore, we denounced its practice, and anyone who practices polygamy is not a member of the LDS Church. I hope this clarifies my beliefs and practices.
Thanks.
Funny thing happened tonight. While flipping the channels I cam across Warren on Fox. I intended to watch the show but, fell to sleep. When the show was going off I awoke. Oh well, It wasn’t ment to be.
Sounds to me like Rick Warren is just trying to get his foot out of his mouth.
Someone here said earlier “God never intended for men to marry men, or women to mary women. ”
I have some tropical yellow wrasses that were both male. One turned itself into a female, and then they had babies. Did “God” not intend that?
As well, did “God” not intend to make hermaphrodites? Concerning humans, ifhermaphrodites are both male and female, or neither, are they doomed to a life of never being able to get married, according to the Bible? Did “God” intend this? If so, why?
Just a thought….
steve says: “I now pastor a church and have for many years and I have men in my fellowship who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle. And their very words were, “It’s as if I’ve been liberated”, they have told me that it is such a deceptive lifestyle and that they kneit was sin but they were just caught up in.
Steve, can you define the lifestyle these people were living? Was it the bars and multi partners who left them feeling empty and lonely?
I know a gay couple who have been together for over 25 years. When they are apart you would never know that they were gay. However, when they are together the love between them can’t be denied. They are now legally married and are hoping to gain the same legal rights and government entitlements as every heterosexual citizen and non citizen receives upon marrage. Equal Rights for all is the issue.
I am responding to a reply on December 23rd.
Dearest Craig,
1. NO WHERE in God’s Word is there any “allowance” of “adultery” or “abuse” or anything else contrary to God’s ways.
2. Rick Warren (as well as mostly all other pastors in the world) will not ever accept “$$ given to the church” from a gay or lesbian.
3. Rick Warren is only an ambassador for God (as well as every other person alive today who believes in God’s Word) This is not Rick Warren’s “judgment”, but it is God’s deep insight into our human frailty and deprivation and our need for God’s help to live by His ways so our lives are not hurt by it. It’s important to understand exactly what an ”ambassador’s” role is in order to understand this… and “IQ” is mainly based on “understanding” and “understanding” is gained by correct knowledge.
4. God teaches “LOVE”…. but … not one single place in God’s Word does it teach “acceptance” (in mind and heart) for ANYTHING contrary to God’s Ways (only tolerance with sincere compassion and love). God’s ways are for our own protection because of HIS LOVE. God’s forgiveness we desire and desperately need for the guilt God instilled in us, is for our emotional, psychological and mental health. LOVE is deeply caring with a sincere heartfelt tenderness for God’s protection and care over gays and lesbians…and that would be first of all to try…. with God’s help, to not continue being gay or lesbian, because, God created us and knows what is perfectly healthy for us psychologically, emotionally, mentally, physically, sexually, spiritually.. etc… anything less is DESTRUCTIVE in some form and to some degree. God also created us with the ability of free choice. Good and evil exist…without evil it would be IMPOSSIBLE to appreciate and know and recognize Good….think about it !
5. I can relate very well to those desires….as well as others. My heart goes out to you. God does love you so much that He wants the very best for you and He can help you. God CAN make sex and companionship with the opposite sex even MORE enjoyable and fulfilling!
Sincerely,
Koinonia77@aol.com
Craig Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Pastor Warren needs to be educated. The sanctity of marriage allows for adultery, abuse in many situations. I think we need to pass a law to where straight couples need to pass a test similar to an IQ test to get married. I guarantee that far lesser marriages would be performed. Then perhaps a chip should be implanted into these yahoo straight people that have no business getting married and procreate. By the way Pastor Warren, when it comes to those gay couples who are involved in giving $$ to your church, I’m sure your political tune changes! My God teaches love and acceptance. You obviously see yourself as God, one who can judge others.
Man in Santa suit kills at least eight at Covina party, police say
Bruce Jeffrey Pardo, a church usher, went to his former in-laws’ home on Christmas Eve and opened fire. His ex-wife and her parents are believed among the eight dead.
An 8-year-old girl ran to answer his knock. When the door swung open, Pardo, 45, shot her in the face with a semiautomatic handgun, stepped into the house and opened fire on the revelers. Amid the chaos, he doused the house with a flammable liquid contained in the package — a pressurized fuel tank, about 2 1/2 feet tall.
Gotta love those god fearing people…
Please, Warren, I doubt that Pardo was a Christian. If an adult brother married his adult sister, you can’t deny love, right?
Can you back peddling ? Rick Warren is changing his stance on gays because the majority of people have also changed thier views and he is realizing that is behind a losing proposition. He is not a stupid person and he is a smart businessman and see whats happening in our society and the changes are not really affecting him and his congretion.
Watch he will continue to become more centrist like the rest of the nation and more tolerant and accepting all human beings.
I am a seminary student preparing to be ordained in The United Methodist Church, the largest mainline Protestant denomination in the United States. I realize that many of you on here are atheist or agnostic, and I respect your positions. I also realize that many of you are conservative evangelicals. To you, conservatives, I would put this question: What have your constant displays or intolerance, hate, close-mindedness, judgmental attitudes, and Bible-thumping communicated to the rest of the world about God?
I don’t know about YOUR God, but MY God is a God who is all about love, forgiveness, reconciliation, grace, and improving society through eradication of discrimination and unfair treatment. Jesus ministered to those on the margins. Look at who is on the margins today, and think about where Jesus might be ministering. Our world has enough hate in it already without “Christians” generating even more of it. Please, I beg you as fellow Christians, show the world God’s LOVE, not your own prejudice and bias.
To those of you who are atheist or agnostic, I would like to offer my sincere apologies to you for the close-minded dogmatic rhetoric you have seen spouted here. It is not helpful. It is counter-productive. And, in my belief, it is contrary to what the true message of Christianity is about. My God is a God of love, and that love is meant for EVERYONE, no exceptions, period. I hope that even if you doubt God’s existence that you can believe that there are those of us out there who do not believe in using the Bible as a weapon of hate but would much rather use its teachings as a guide to help us bring love, grace, reconciliation, peace, and justice to the world.
God bless you. ALL of you. No exceptions.
Pastor Rick is “tolerent”. Both he and I just want homosexuals to repent of their sins. As I pointed out, above, he is not back peddling.
Why is love between to consenting adults who are not blood related a sin? I think the bible is an out dated book based on the old world’s lifesytle.
Warren:
It doesn’t matter why it is a sin, as I have given plenty of secular reasons for outlawing same-sex marriage.
Besides, you didn’t answer my question.
Warren Says: “It doesn’t matter why