Four California propositions remain too close to call with 95 percent of the vote counted. Proposition 8, the gay marriage ban, is ahead by 403,572 votes, or 52 percent to 48 percent. The Associated Press is reporting that while the measure appears headed for passage, it is not yet a done deal. The Orange County Register does not typically call races and takes its cue from the Associated Press. Here is the latest wire story.
Some media outlets have already declared Proposition 8 a winner, such as the Los Angeles Times. Opponents of the measure are already preparing court challenges against the vote. Also, attorney Gloria Allred has scheduled a noon press conference to discuss a lawsuit she is filing on behalf of a lesbian couple.
Here is a look at the other measures still pending: Proposition 4, the measure on abortion for minors, is failing by 454,841 votes, or 48 percent to 52 percent.
Proposition 1, the high-speed transportion measure, is passing by 421, 536, or 52 percent to 48 percent.
And Proposition 11, the redistricting measure, is ahead by 89,811 votes, or 51 percent to 49 percent. Stay tuned to Total Buzz for updates.
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MORE ELECTION COVERAGE (complete coverage here)
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I ran the raw numbers so everyone can get ready for work and not worry about it not passing.
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At this point roughly 478,370 votes remain uncounted.
These voted come from various Counties which only 3 seem to be against the Prop in current results (Santa Clara, Monterey and Yolo) which will gain roughly 53,636 No and 44,452 Yes Votes.
This is not enough to counter Kings, Imperial, San Bernardino, Riverside, San Benito and San Diego yes votes which will likely add 389,240 Yes and 228,718 No Votes based on current results.
The Prop Wins! It is amazing how OC Register cannot put these numbers together and are still holding on to hope that Santa Clara, Monterey and Yolo Counties will shock the State with less then 100,000 votes to be counted in those Counties.
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Based on the Calculations
5.2M Yes (52.1%)
4.8M No (47.9%)
It was very close!
The next headline will read, “Prop 8 Opponents head to Court to challenge the Will of the People”.
Have those who voted Yes on Prop 1 not heard about the fiscal crisis in Sacramento? How will the state pay for another $10B in bonds? Bonds are not free money, and we can’t afford the bonds that have already been issued. And I can guarantee that $10B is just a start - if this project kicks off, massive cost overruns will be a given and they will keep coming back to the trough. Not to mention that rail in the Western US is a non-starter. It will never reach the levels of ridership that is needed to keep it solvent without huge government subsidies to keep it operating. Even in Europe where rail is the standard way to get around, the systems require govt support to keep running. I’m saddened that Californians are so easily duped.
Gavin Newsome and Chief Justice Ronald George, where are you now? These remaining counties are gonna report, whether you like it or not.
I just CAN NOT believe, that we as a State can’t learn from the Lesson we’ve been humbly taught by our Nation. It’s basically a slap on the face after someone’s dumped a bucket of cold water over your head.
That the whole United States of America, was able to see past Barak Obama’s skin color and background and elect him president, was a HUGE statement against discrimination..
and yet..
Here we are in California, where people just turned around and completely discriminated honest, loving, loyal, good human beings, just because of their sexual preference. I am straight, I’ve been married for 9 years (together with my man for 12), but why would I clearly discriminate other human beings?
It is a SAD SAD day indeed for our state, and I am very ashamed that people can’t see past THEIR own view… Past their own religion… Past their own fragile little bubble… and embrace another person for WHO they are and not for what they are.
They said YES to Discrimination! and they basically said TOO BAD IF YOU DON”T BELIEVE IN GOD and THE BIBLE!
They completely ignored the fact that people who don’t read the Bible had a say too!
What if someone is an Atheist? or Muslim? Or follows a religious book / creed that is not the Bible?
What happened to “Freedom of Religion”?
What happened to “Separation of Church and State”?
And even if they were going to base their argument on the Bible I ask: “What happened to LOVE THY BROTHER”? and “WWJD?” (What Would Jesus Do)
I’m am 100% sure that if we asked Jesus right now he would say “we must love our brothers and sisters”
I don’t remember anywhere in the Bible where Jesus said “please love thy brothers and sisters unless they are sorta different from you” or “love thy brothers and sisters unless you don’t agree with them on something”
If we wanna go by the Bible, what about when God talked to Moses?
Didn’t he say:
“You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD” Leviticus 19:18
Where is the Love!?
Matthew 22:36-40 says:
“Teacher, which is the great commandment of the law?” and Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” On these two commandments hang all the Law and Prophets”
I am SHOCKED at how we are showing our brothers, sisters, and neighbors this LOVE that we’re supposed to be having! and now we are hanging all the Law on these commandments.
I am SO SO mad and sad and disappointed!
Wahoo that 8 Passed!!
God LOVES Discrimination!!!
P.S. Since separation of Church and State doesn’t count anymore and we’re going by Christian believes, let’s just go ahead and start praying in our schools again!
You’re an idiot Alan.
It isn’t the “will of the people”.
I sincerely hope each and every prop 8 supporter truly understands the message you have sent to the gay and lesbian citizens of California.
It’s unbeliavable that the Orange County Register doesn’t have the guts to say this Prop is going to win! It’s very obvious and even the Wall Street Journal is courageous enough to say it. Yes, where are you Newsome and George losers….guess what? The will of the people has changed everything (and with less money, thank you immoral Brad Pit)….whether you like it or not!
Just an overall comment about ALL the news media regarding ALL the candidates and Props:
Do your job ! I am less disturbed at the candidates that won and lost than I am that the entire Establishment media gives a pass to the ones they like and excoriates the ones they don’t. That’s not journalism, it’s activism.
The influence that Rezko, Ayres and Wright will have on our new president does not affect me nearly as much as the fact that we have lost the one institution that fought for the common man; they held ALL the politicians accountable and kept the whole process honest. Without which we the people lose.
It is the will of the people. Just like, even though I didn’t vote for Obama, the will of the people puts him in the White House. Now I have to accept that the people want him there. It is the same with Prop 8. The will of the people speaks on behalf of the majority of people, not what judges think the people want when an outspoken minority makes noise.
Alan,
If it didn’t pass just how would your life have been affected? How dare you celebrate taking away equal rights that were already granted?! Get that smirk off your prejudiced face because it is NOT legal to discriminate, even if 52% of the people think it’s OK to.
Can we call it now?
96.4% Precincts
08 - Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry
YES: 5,220,694 52.2%
NO: 4,792,873 47.8%
Susan; If the majority of voters vote for it, it IS the will of the people. Just not the people you choose to “hang” with.
I presume you will now make some equally eloquent remark and call me an pejorative name to make up for not having a persuasive argument nor the intellectual honesty to evaluate facts with any degree of objective accuracy.
I suspect that you vote with your feelings, as in it makes you feel good to vote a certain way, not because there is a clear logic to your position.
I actually agree with some of the underlying issues, but believe that the opponents are misguided. It’s sort of the equivalent of saying that you want to be a member of a Christian Church but do not believe in Christ.
Equality is something that I believe we all agree on; but subverting an established institution like marriage to get around other “legal” issues is just nonsense.
Alan:
The will of the people? Are you serious? This is a modern day witchhunt by religious nutjobs. Nothing more, nothing less
“I sincerely hope each and every prop 8 supporter truly understands the message you have sent to the gay and lesbian citizens of California.”
We DO, and that message is this: stop demanding we AGREE that your lifestyle is normal, acceptable, or good. Don’t try to FORCE us to accept YOUR ideology surrounding this issue.
You have a right to live peacefully, to have your relationships, to not be harmed, discriminated against, etc. Being told you cannot utilize the term “marriage” to confer upon your unions a veil of legitimacy is NOT a violation of your rights.
To: Ellen DeGeneres, Arnold “can’t pass a budget” Schwartzeneger, Finestein, Ron George, Newsome, Villaraigosa, O’Connell, Pitt, etc. You do not reflect the values of the people who live in this state.
Did you see that LA voted “Yes” on 8 and for Obama?!!! So much for the argument that 8 is just like the Civil Rights movement regarding race. These are two very different issues and movements. And thankfully Californians understand the difference between the two.
Here is the link to get the most up to the minute results. Based on my calculations this morning based on unreported precincts in the State Prop 8 was going to win with 52.1%.
http://vote.sos.ca.gov/props/index.html
I think we can also call the others:
1A - Safe, Reliable High-Speed Train Bond Act
YES: 4,959,358 52.3%
NO: 4,535,334 47.7%
04 - Parent Notif. Before Terminating Minor’s Pregnancy
NO: 5,056,551 52.3%
YES: 4,617,395 47.7%
I find it interesting that the opponents to Prop 8 called the Yes on 8 as discrimination and yet they want to silence the will of the People and the will of 30 other States. Did we expect anything less?
Sens I was literally just thinking the same thing.
I love how people are failing to see, and focus on “ELIMINATES”.
Does that not mean anything to anyone? This is horrible, and embarrassing. What is that called again? When the church and the state are separate?
You religious right should be ashamed of yourselves, but sadly, this is glorifying for all of you.
Absolutely disgusting.
What a gay person does is their own business, but what we don’t want is for them to change and dictate how we must think. There needs to be “tolerance” on both sides.
You must tolerate our way of thinking as well. We believe that marriage is sacred, and should only be between one man and one woman. You believe otherwise. We put it to a vote, and it appears that the majority of people chose to define marriage as a union of man and woman.
This is not racism. We are not saying that you cannot be gay. We are saying that we don’t want you to change what we consider to be sacred, because you believe differently than us. Please show us some tolerance.
I personally believe that the lifestyle that your cousin has chosen is sinful. However, I believe that everybody commits sin. But, just because everyone sins, doesn’t make the sin ok. Your cousin has feelings toward a person of his/her gender. A married man may have feelings toward another woman who is not his wife. How ever normal those feelings may be, the sin is when we act those feelings. This is my personal belief.
Where do we draw the line? Our morals as a society are way out of whack. What is next… a pediphile wanting to marry a young person because “he/she was born that way”? Will that be ok too? Must we “tolerate” that behavior? (I realize that example is extreme, but 30 years ago, the people would have thought gay marriage was extreme too).
I do not hate gays or lesbians. My aunt has chosen that lifestyle, and I still love her. I don’t, however, agree with it. She understands that. That is tolerance! We both disagree and still love each other. It goes both ways.
I hope this all makes sense to those of you who may read it. I do not intend to be hurtful. We are all God’s children, and he loves each of us equally. He does not, however, condone sin.
Harleyjazz,
Still pushing the tired old line, huh? Blaming the media instead of the horrendous policies that drove this country into the ground. If only the media hadn’t reported on how incompetent and radical Sarah Palin was. If only the media hadn’t reported about the awful wars, or horrible Katrina response, or closed door Energy policy meetings, or all the Republican scandals.
Oh, and BTW, McCain got a free pass on Keating, gambling, having no compelling reason to be elected President, giving up damaging intel as a POW and the reasons that drove his wife to painkiller addiction as well as his cold heartedness in dumping a disabled wife for a blond, rich heiress. So quit the whining about Ayres and Rezko. Even McCain himself said Ayres was a non-issue (and, frankly, it is a non-issue considering the “association” is so weak. You guys were grasping for straws at that point).
Liz B. give it a rest! Protect our children, adopted children deserve a fair chance in a functioning heterosexual family.
“Yes on 8″ signs may have well just said “GOD HATES FAGS” because that’s what most of you people really want to say.
Sens the people have spoken, don’t like it? MOVE
Megan - God hates sin–whether it’s adultery, fornication, homosexuality, murder, theft, etc. He does not hate the sinner. And yes, it’s possible to love the sinner and hate the sin if you are religious: otherwise one would hate themself as we all sin. This was never about hate. All “yes” people know and love homosexuals, just like we all know and love and have good long-lasting friendships for individuals who are involved in infidelity and other things religious people consider sin. The beauty of religion is that it allows for change to overcome sin. Move off the “hate” spin: it obviously didn’t work.
Wow! Liz is pretty ‘wound up’. I don’t think that state legalization of ‘marriage’ between ‘il fitting parts’ is discrimination. No one is suggesting that an individual is restricted in who or what they love. Just don’t ask the state or the courts to define it as marriage.
How does Prop 8 Eliminate any rights?
It was rogue Judges that thought they could dictate policy in our State.
The People voted to define marriage once and we passed it. The People voted again to define marriage and it passed.
Our Country is not based on dictatorship of Judges.
The Majority of the People have the final say and not appointed lawyers.
Discrimination exist only when People are overruled by a few. In this case the few being the appointed lawyers. So who was really discriminated against? We all were when the Judges took our rights away and overruled the People.
Megan,
The ignorance and bigotry claims are tired and played out. This is a moral issue and I thank God and everyone in California for voting Yes on 8. Marriage has been around for 20,000 years, why do we need to mess with it’s definition?
Megan don’t like it? MOVE
LA Times has now called a win for Prop 8.
I’m disgusted with the voters of Orange County (and California, for that matter). Animals (Prop. 2) seem to have more rights than gays and lesbians.
There will be a protest in West Hollywood tonight. A lot of people are pissed and hurt.
I am very, very sad today. I consider myself a Christian and have followed my Bible by respecting and loving my fellow neighbor and voted NO on Prop H8TE. Sadly, too many people in California are hiding their fear and homophobia behind “religion” and the idea that somehow this prop passing will translate into teaching their children to be gay.
Regardless of how people feel about homosexuality and whether it is right or wrong . . . IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO DECIDE. As Christians we have two important rules to live by . . . Love your God . . . Love your Neighbor. Leave the rest up to the Lord to decide.
How does Prop 8 Eliminate any rights?
It was rogue Judges that thought they could dictate policy in our State.
The People voted to define marriage once and we passed it. The People voted again to define marriage and it passed.
Our Country is not based on dictatorship of Judges.
The Majority of the People have the final say and not appointed lawyers.
ALAN:
AMEN TO YOU!
Discrimination exist only when People are overruled by a few. In this case the few being the appointed lawyers. So who was really discriminated against? We all were when the Judges took our rights away and overruled the People.
OCGator needs a ’spell check program’. Gee Megan, why don’t you just ’spit it out’. You went and ‘opened the door’ for 2319h to ’spin’ the tale of God and adulteery, etc. Bummer.
BTW, the LA Times already has called this one as a Prop. 8 victory.
In other news, the demographic that appears to have put this proposition over the top is African-American voters, who, according to exit polls, overwhelmingly supported Prop. 8 by a whopping 69% to 31% margin — a 38 point spread! Latinos also favored the proposition. So, it was the support of the 2 biggest minorities in California that got this supposedly “hateful” and “bigoted” initiative passed. The reality is that this was never about hate. This was about people reaffirming the essential nature of something that has been the cornerstone of human society for virtually all of recorded history.
Here’s the L.A. Times article: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaymarriage6-2008nov06,0,2331815.story
I’m here to say that God does not hate gay people. I do not hate gay people. They live in a country where they can choose to live any way they choose in the privacy of their own homes. The difference here is that we do not have to recognize their choice as law. That is it. I’m a part of the “religious right” and I’m wondering where everyone’s morals and values have gone. God loves everyone and to Liz B. imagine where we would be if we did have prayer back in schools…the world may be a much nicer place. It is all about tolerance as long as we are tolerating what everyone is throwing out there. The second you choose to not agree, you are all the names in the book. You can keep your tolerance, thank you.
Liz B., Jesus loved everyone while not accepting all their behavior. To the woman taken in adultery he said, “Neither do I condemn thee. Go thy way and sin no more.” Even still this has not been simply a religious issue (I know for a fact that there are atheists who voted for Prop.
and there are good legal reasons for restricting the definition of marriage to being only between a man and a woman and gays still have equal rights under domestic partnership laws. Equal rights are already in place for gay couples and Yes on 8 supporters are doing *nothing* (emphasis on “nothing”) to take that away.
Megan, it’s unfortunate that former Governor Jerry Brown utilized the phrase “eliminates rights” when choosing the wording for Proposition 8. It’s not wording that any Yes on 8 supporter would’ve chosen.
I wish the issue of homosexuality was as simple as some people wish it to be… but it’s not. People refer to sexual preference… but some people prefer sex with children too. Where does this illogic end? Homosexuals want their way accepted… not tollerated. They want marriage redefined. Fine… you want to be homosexual.. then fine… but let’s not twist the laws and then attack christianity. You have a right to be homosexual… but I have a right to teach my children. You do NOT have a right to teach my children what YOU want or what YOU believe. If you do have that right then I am not free… and who is hating who then? The biggest hatred out there is from those people who want to tell me what I have to accept. You choose your ways but you don’t ever tell me what to do or how to raise my chldren… and that’s is what this is ultimately about. If you force my kids to accept your homosexual ways then that feel like hate… not freedom.
Blue - You’re spot on!!! The “No” folks just never understood that the civil-rights movement with respect to race was a completely different issue. I’m glad the beneficiaries of that movement sent a message to the “No” folks that at least they understand the difference.
mismommy gets it.
Nobodys “rights” are changed. There is no “right” to marriage just as there isn’t a “right” to baptisms, bar mitzvahs or communion. These events, just like marriage, is a Religious institution and the Government has no business telling Religions how the will observe.
Civil unions and the accompanied responsibilities and legal benefits are a “right” that should be available to all people and not just same sex couples.
And on a side note, lets get Bride and Groom back on those marriage licenses!
“African-American voters . . . overwhelmingly supported Prop. 8 by a whopping 69% to 31% margin”
Which also shows that blacks didn’t like gays trying to glom onto their civil rights story.
Well said Blue.
“I sincerely hope each and every prop 8 supporter truly understands the message you have sent to the gay and lesbian citizens of California.”
We DO, and that message is this: stop demanding we AGREE that your lifestyle is normal, acceptable, or good. Don’t try to FORCE us to accept YOUR ideology surrounding this issue.
You have a right to live peacefully, to have your relationships, to not be harmed, discriminated against, etc. Being told you cannot utilize the term “marriage” to confer upon your unions a veil of legitimacy is NOT a violation of your rights.
The scoreboard doesn’t lie !!! Game over.
“I sincerely hope each and every prop 8 supporter truly understands the message you have sent to the gay and lesbian citizens of California.”
For whatever reason my comment keeps getting moderated, despite the fact that I never use foul language, never respond with hostility, etc. Why would the register moderate my posts while all this other garbage flows through here? Interesting question.
In answer to the question above, let me say this: We DO understand the message being sent, and that message is this: stop demanding we AGREE that your lifestyle is normal, acceptable, or good. Don’t try to FORCE us to accept YOUR ideology surrounding this issue.
You have a right to live peacefully, to have your relationships, to not be harmed, discriminated against, etc. Being told you cannot utilize the term “marriage” to confer upon your unions a veil of legitimacy is NOT a violation of your rights.
HarleyJazz said “subverting an established institution like marriage to get around other “legal” issues is just nonsense.”
Excellent point!
Liz B: your Biblically-based arguments are, well..stupid. You reference Moses law, for example–well Moses declared that homosexuality was punishable by death (Lev. 20). You also mentioned the Koran–I would guess that they declare a similar penalty for homosexuality. Look, I’m a Christian and I don’t like homosexuality, but I do have homosexual friends. That they’re gender preference is different than mine has no bearing on my ability to NOT discriminate against them.
Anyway, Liz, put away your ignorant WWJD statements and stop quoting the Bible in a way that is contextually inaccurate. It’s not an issue about discrimination–you’re living under the guise of past injustices that have long been legislated away. It’s about a definition. In fact, in some respects, same-sex partners have some advantages. I know my employer, for one, will provide health coverage for an employee’s domestic partner, but I don’t think it will cover my girlfriend, even if I declared her to be my partner and she lived with me (I’m going to check on that). If that were the case, you could consider that as a form of discrimination.
Besides that, the Bible says very clearly to love the sinner but hate the sin. The law of the land is the law of the land–get used to it and stop your complaining.
I think the opposition to Prop. 8 has reflected an interesting twist on the patronizing “White Man’s Burden” (a la Kipling) sentiments from a century ago. At that time, European colonial powers — especially Great Britain — thought it there duty to bring “civilization” to the “savage” (i.e., non-white) peoples of the world. The No on 8 crowd, which, as exit polls showed, is overwhelmingly composed of White (and mostly liberal-leaning) voters, has adopted a very similar attitude with respect to gay rights/same-sex marriage and racial minority voters. Those minority groups have rightly rejected that forced “enlightenment.”
The bottom line is that same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue on par with race-based civil rights. The historical backgrounds of those movements are very, very different. Same-sex marriage is not equivalent to interracial marriage legally, socially, or culturally.
Megan, GOD does NOT hate homosexuals. Christian’s do NOT teach hatred towrds homosexuals. People are the problem… not God or Christianity.
Homosexuals have freedoms & rights… but none of us have the right to redefine marriage. Homosexuals are forcing their ways, forcing us to accept their ways… that could be considered hatred. As our society deteriorates morally we are asked to tollerate more and more things… we should not be forced to accept what a person does sexually… but we can tollerate it.
You have the presuposition that homosexuality is acceptable. Others think it’s unacceptable. We need the freedom to believe either one… but let’s not redefine marriage.
Unlike the Rat Democrats, when Replicans lose an election, they get over it move on with their lives. We won’t plot to unmine our whole financial sytem the way the Democrats did just to gain power. That said, I guarantee you the Democrats will overreach with everything from universal healthcare to banning guns and the backlash will be very very painful for them. Bring it on I can’t wait.
Yikes — “there” should be “their.”
you people are ignorant. who are you to decide for other people. you are the same people who thin they can tell woman they are not allowed to have an abortion. ignorant, stubborn, stupid, religous freaks.
Mandux, that wasn’t called for.
Its sad that so many people are against same sex marriage. Who ar you to say who can marry who? We might as well ban interracial marriage as well. I hope that one day you have something that you feel very strongly about and it gets thrown in your face in such a way thats not in your favor. Who knew California is a majority of closed minded people? The worst part is, most of those who voted yes, were brainwashed with the image that it will be taught in schools. As a teacher myself, you should come to the schools and see what your children already know, especially to find out what you think they dont know. And if your angle is Religion, then you are just a hyprocrite to judge others. I hope one day something opens your eyes, whether tragic or reasonable.
Congrats, Blue.
“Vote Yes, think of your childrens future”
this is so laughable.
“RV in SoCAl Says:
November 5th, 2008 at 9:44 am
Unlike the Rat Democrats, when Replicans lose an election, they get over it move on with their lives. We won’t plot to unmine our whole financial sytem the way the Democrats did just to gain power.”
Hahaha. Yeah, you just move on.. and come up with ridiculous conspiracy theories to explain why you got beat by a black guy.
IT’S OVER…………..YES
Mandux, stop the derisive language.
Actually I’m heterosexual, but thanks for being so hateful.
The will of slightly more half the voters is not the will of the people. This will be struck down as contradictory to the Constitution. Of course, people will say activist judges, but they will be doing their jobs. Equal rights will prevail.
I don’t really care if man wants to marry another man or a woman wants to marry another woman. What I worry about the impact on children if those same-sex married couple have ability to adopt children. Imagine those children beign asked about his/her mother/father from his/her friends, a son wants to learn boyhood things from his father, a daughter wants to go shopping with her mother for her prom dress, etc….
Bottom line is, I am not against Prop 8 but want to see revised version, “No adoption of children”.
The funny things is, that while driving around last week I didn’t see anyone trying to stop Atheists from getting married, I didn’t see signs protesting Buddhists, Muslims, Hindu’s or members of several other non Judeo-Christian religions from getting married.
The fact of the matter is the term “marriage” unequivocally represents what people consider the ‘norm’ in relationships in America—the majority of straight couples in America get married, even if they are not Christian. They don’t choose civil unions, they get married, because that is what people who love each other do in this Country.
The fact that Prop 8 was passed in California is a shame, and the fact that you so called “Christians” who espoused so much hate and negative judgment towards the Gay community is blatantly discriminatory.
But whatever makes you sleep at night—have fun rationalizing the 50% divorce rate among straight couples in this country—at least Gay and Lesbians fought for a right that ½ of the married populace pisses on…
I am straight, but I will NOT get married until my gay brother has the same opportunity.
God Bless bigotry!
Megan, we’re sorry that Mandux is a little mentally ill.
Mandux,
I hope you have a gay son one day (if that’s not the case already).
Liz B - You conflate the Biblical concepts of unconditional love with God’s intolerance for sin. Man and womankind fall short of perfection and sin. But, as the Savior taught and as you point out, we must love one another unconditionally as we all struggle to overcome sin. The struggle against and being saved from sin is THE purpose of religion and, more specifically, Christ’s ministry. This “love the sinner hate the sin” concept is clearly illustrated in what has probably become the most visible, famous verse from the Bible: John 3:16-For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever might believe in Him shall be saved (paraphrased). In other words, God loved all men/women, but knowing they were all sinners (while loving them nonetheless), he sent his Son as a Savior from sin. This is the whole point of Christianity. If you are going to “go there”, you need to understand the way religious people think and believe. I’m not sure you do, so I share this with you.
Personally I am extremely proud of the decision on Prop 8. This is not a civil rights issue. There are no rights being taken away from homosexuals. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I feel it is mt responsibilty, along with others of different religious affiliations to stand up for what we believe in. Homosexuals are not bad people nor do they have any reason to be hated as individuals. However, when marriage has been a religious commitment from the beginning of time, there is no reason that it should change. As Americans, our country was founded on Christianity and for the last decade people have been trying to erase God from the picture completely.
“Our constitution,” said John Adams, “was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
We will NOT add marriage to the list of things to remove! Marriage is a devine sacred institution and I will fight for it each day I live. I will not have my children grow up in a world (which is already losing its moral value) where God isn’t recognized! I will not sit back and try and be politcally correct about things and I will not sit back and let others who have no idea about this situation bring down this state for the rest of us!
I know people who are gay and do love them, but I know what the Lords wants for me and my family and that is that!
Why don’t we all be gay? Oh yeah, then humankind would cease to exist! Oh wait! What about in vitro ?? Well that would work for the females. But what about male couples? Well, I guess they could adopt the accidental in vitros. Or maybe Dan & Mike could pair up with Susan and Jan and just scientifically figure out how to continue earth existence.
Love you guys, but a same-sex world just wont work.
The argument over this proposition is so violently divisive. Here’s an attempt at objectivity.
1. Black and Hispanic cultures are generally intolerant of homosexuality. Anyone could have seen their vote on 8 coming a mile away. So everyone please stop citing their voting practices to support/oppose the prop 8/civil rights argument. IT PROVES NOTHING. Oh, and you can be a minority and still be bigoted. The two are hardly mutually exclusive. (see also: Jeremiah Wright).
2. Marriage is not a religious institution. It is a practice that is carried out worldwide, in all cultures. Also, plenty of CA citizens opt for a civil wedding ceremony (especially when the bride and groom hold different religious beliefs)
3. For the record, the institution of marriage is hardly an immovable monument. Throughout the course of history, it has been altered repeatedly. Once upon a time, all marriages were arranged by family. Divorce was illegal (speaking of religion). Nowadays…
Freedom to choose? Check. Divorce? Check. Women divorcing men? Check. Inter-racial marriages? Check.
For the record, the ’strongest’ marriages were probably the arranged ones.
The bottom line is this: The state of California is not ready for gay marriage. The people simply are not comfortable with it. It doesn’t mean Cali is full of gay-bashing crazy bible thumpers. Although they were certainly very visible this election, I’m fairly certain most people already knew where they stood on this issue.
Sorry gays. For the record, I voted no.
I really cannot believe what I am reading! Marriage is a right; you have the right to love whomever you choose! And how dare you god loving fools state that they shouldn’t have the right to marry! I would like to know how this will directly affect all of you! I am married, and if someone told me I couldn’t marry the one I loved because he was who he is, I know I would not stand for it!
How about this… If this really is a “sanctity of marriage” issue then No more divorce, no more affairs, no more mail order brides, no more marriage for a green card, no more marriage for those who just met.
And if we are “Restoring marriage” then we need to make sure that only those with religious beliefs can marry. Marriage started as a religious ceremony, but it is now a contract! I know I had to pay to get a marriage license; also I had to pay to have someone marry me!
So let’s just be honest, this has nothing to do with marriage rights, or restoring traditional marriage, and everything to do with Homophobic bigots, and those who are probably just struggling to oppress their own homosexual feelings!
For the people that like to quote from the bible, the bottom line in the bible is - Love the sinner, hate the sin. And last time I checked homosexuality was on the sin list.
It used to be that our school system taught human reproduction (also known as sex education). The purpose was for our children to understand how man recreates, but we have drifted from that, and now we teach about marriage. It is a science project not a moral subject. unfortunately a few have made it into a morals type class.
If we continue down this road soon our education system will have career days with representitives from the pimps union, the LOTEU (ladies of the evening union), and illegal pharmacuticals and distribution professionals. ( based on the No logic, that is acceptable)
Someday you may get your wish to have your morals legally legislated on the masses, but becareful and look over your shoulder because those that have a passion for farm animals might be close behind.
So prop 8 wasn’t a religious issue right?
HAHAHAHA
While it is certainly disappointing that Prop. 8 passed, it’s frankly mortifying to see its supporters here repeating the same debunked, specious arguments over and over. This decision wasn’t based on rational thought; it was based on people believing what they wanted to despite the facts. It was based on willful ignorance. It’s pathetic that after the spectacular failure of eight years of George W. Bush’s policies, fueled and supported by religion-based willful ignorance, so many people in California once again relied on this same ignorance to pass a discriminatory proposition.
Regarding the will-of-the-people claims: a common misconception is that American society is based on the concept of majority rule and therefore that whatever the majority decides is axiomatically “right.” In fact, it’s quite the opposite. The US was founded on the concept of individual rights and the notion that the proper role of government is to protect those rights. In particular, the government is supposed to protect individuals from those with more power, like a misguided majority.
Ironically, governments are one of the greatest threats to individual rights. That’s why the U.S. Constitution and the state constitutions, by and large, place limits on what the federal and state governments are allowed to do. In regard to the current context, the state constitution required that the government not play favorites. For instance, it’s unconstitutional to have a law that says white people can vote, but non-whites can’t. Such a law, if passed by the people, would rightly be struck down by the courts, regardless if it is the will of the people.
The California Supreme Court struck down Prop. 22 for the same reason. Yes, the judges went directly against the expressed will of the people, but they did so because the people made a bad decision that went against the ideal of equality before the law, in violation of the state constitution. They didn’t arbitrarily decide to make new law as many Prop. 8 supporters claim.
Megan, I like you!
“Damon you must Gay. I’m sorry that you didn’t have a good solid family who could of teached you the difference between Man & Woman.”
Mandux did you seriously go to school? “TEACHED”???? “COULD OF”????
stepping_up - “it is NOT legal to discriminate, even if 52% of the people think it’s OK to.”
You’re declaring a Constitutional Ammendment un-Constitutional. That’s funny.
Yes, let us all go to church! Because clearly thay taught all of you tolerance, and equality!!
At least Prop 4 failed!
Trueblue - This isn’t just about the religious component of marriage. that’s just part of it. The problems is, opponents of 8 continually focus in and “open the door” to the religious component. There are multiple secular components to 8 as well. It’s a matirx of reasons, not just a single reason. To single out the religious component is an attempt (and failure) to set up and knock down a straw man. Oh, and if you don’t like the result, move out of the state bro. Just don’t go to Florida, Arizona . . . Actually, I’m not sure where you could move to and be happy in the United States. Maybe the Netherlands or something. Check in with us and keep posting though.
…for the THIRD time.
“And how dare you god loving fools state that they shouldn’t have the right to marry!”
Everyone has the right to marry someone of the opposite sex. That right is not being taken away. While many people have a religious belief regarding the issue (and I am one of them) Prop. 8 was about saying that there are good LEGAL reasons to keep the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman. There were even atheists who voted for Prop. 8. Despite my religious belief about marriage I only discussed Proposition 8 with people from a legal perspective and left my religious beliefs out.
And the reason blacks were brought up was to show that they don’t think the smoke and mirrors gays are throwing up about this issue do not equate to the African-American civil rights movement. And, yes, there are gay Hispanics and blacks.
23I9H
Hey Bro, I am pretty sure that was the biggest issue! I need to know what else there was here! I fthat wasn’t the only issue!
Was it teching kids in schools? Because I am pretty sure kids are going to run across gay people sometime in thier little impressionable lives!
Apparently Gay rubs off on people now?!?!
If all the “No” people moved out of california the economy would crumble! So you go ahead and tell them all to leave, lets see what you do with out them!
Meant to say:
And the reason blacks were brought up was to show that they don’t think the smoke and mirrors gays are throwing up about this issue equate to the African-American civil rights movement.
I cannot wait to watch Ellen today.
“Yes, let us all go to church! Because clearly thay taught all of you tolerance, and equality!!”
You clearly haven’t read the statements here that clarify that gays already have equal rights (special rights over heterosexuals even) and that most Christians tolerate and accept gays without feeling like they need to accept their behavior.
THANK YOU for getting rid of Mandux.
I agree, Hope.
Children have rights, too.
Prop 8 should be revised to say “No child adoption”!
To Reality Check, I like what you said… very intelligently worded.
Today we are in a cultural war of values. 200 years ago values were clear and the issue of homosexuality was not an issue. It was understood to be morally wrong.
(Actually the term “Gay” is a misuse of the word. There is nothing “gay” about homosexuality… ask the Flintstones.)
America has been on a downward spiral morally for a long time. Our society has become worse over the years. My kids hear cursing everyday at school. 20 years ago when I was in school I heard none. How did we come to tollerate such offensive language in just 20 years? Look at divorice… common now, rare 30 years ago. Our country has lost the ability to understand good & evil, right & wrong in many many ways. Christian values are under attack and have been for a long time now. People do not want to be told what they are doing is wrong, bad or harmful. Mankind is self destructive… if left to our own ways. Unfortunately we need a standard that is outside ourselves… that is what this county is founded on.
And God did create marriage… man & woman. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than creation… and what you believe on this subject will determine your values.
They clearly do not have equal rights! I just do not understand why you all feel that a man can’t love a man, or a woman can’t love a woman! I don’t want to hear “oh they can love each other, they just can’t marry” Its the same thing! Why don’t you all just try to pass a measure that makes it legal to kill them, or makes hate crimes legal!
When it comes down to it we are all human, and it is human to love.
“Why don’t you all just try to pass a measure that makes it legal to kill them, or makes hate crimes legal! ”
For one big, really good reason: We don’t hate them!
Trueblue - Yes, our kids in school–the shareholders of this vote–will run across homosexuals in school. Absolutely, just like I have growing up here and with my homosexual friends. The difference now will be that a state-sponsored institution (district curiculum (sp??), teacher bias and agenda, etc.) cannot be a factor under Education Code Section 51933 et seq. So *my* kids will learn about homosexuality within the conxtext that I explain it to them: love the sinner, hate the sin. I will explain this to them when they ask about it, when they are mature enough to start learning about sexual relationships and marriage. Not when their district curriculem designers decide it is time. That is a very valuable, secular right I want to hold and maintain as a parent. And the school issue is–again–just one other (of many) components.
If all “No” supporters moved, their jobs would be quickly replaced by “Yes’ folks. Come on, bro, this California. Any job that’s available gets snatched up quickly by the next guy/gal in line. It’s the Golden State for a reason. I sincerely wish Villaraigosa, Newsome, Finestein, O’Connell et al. would leave. Are you saying there are no others capable of filling their shoes?
How can you say you don’t hate them? the comments are getting more and more horrific, and stoping them from happieness has a direct corrilation with hate!
There are pleanty of fiscal reasons why this was a bad prop to pass as well, but no one cares about that!
Dave said: “My kids hear cursing everyday at school. 20 years ago when I was in school I heard none.”
On this one, all I can ask is, where did you go to school? I graduated high school in 1989, and I can assure you that cursing was just as rampant then as it is now. I think our society has changed for the worse in some key ways, but I don’t quite buy in to the whole doom and gloom outlook.
Bottom line…it passed. If you have a problem, get over it. Move On.
Does this mean I can’t marry my golden retriever now?? This isn’t fair! I don’t get any tax breaks, and she cant even see me in the hospital bed! We really do love each other, and even though it is unnatural and we can’t procreate, I hear there is a great story to read to our children in class to educate them on the relationships between man and beast.
I bet if Prop 8 were to ban Beastial Marriages it would have passed by a lot greater margins than it did for homosexual marriage. And all of your tolerance arguments would be thrown out the window because there is something innately wrong with Beastiality and you know it.
This is a slippery slope where the cry for “tolerance” is the grease. Being tolerant means a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one’s own; freedom from bigotry.
Let’s see how “tolerant” you are when your childrens’ school teachers are teaching them of christianity and diety as though it is “just HOW it is” or that it can be an alternative lifestyle to your jewish or lack of faith. You wont “tolerate” and neither will I. I will define clearly once and for all how it should be run and let me govern my own family.
This is the issue.
Trueblue-
Please ellaborate for us on the following statements:
“stoping them from happieness has a direct corrilation with hate”
“There are pleanty of fiscal reasons why this was a bad prop to pass”. On this one, if you’re referring to the amount of money that businesses and hotels will make because of additional weddings, the amount is negligeable and overated. I’m mean seriously, did you hear any organized and respectable chamber of commerce, any merchants’ groups, any hotel-industry opposition to 8? Please, please ellaborate on the “ple[]nty of reasons” for us.
“How can you say you don’t hate them?”
Because I don’t. It’s very simple. They have every right to love each other in their domestic partnership. They also have the right to coin a term that describes a gay union rather than hijacking the heterosexual term. I simply don’t understand how you’re gleaning “hatred” out of all this. The Girl Scouts don’t hate boys because they don’t let boys into their group.
Mandux,
Trueblue is right for once. You are not helping the cause at all with hatred. So just be quiet.
I guess my sarcasm doesn’t help much either. But I try to make people think.
Thank you for moderating Mandux.
Yes, Mandux does not represent the Prop. 8 supporters I know.
hmmmm….equal rights u all say…
So ‘unmarried’ couples can file joint tax returns same as married people?
If not, how is this equal to the rights of married couples?
just an observation, but if it’s just about the ‘definition’ of the state usage of the word ‘marriage’, let’s use a different word for ‘marriage’ that includes all domestic partners. So let’s call unions under God ‘marriage’, and call unions by state officials something else…but give them all full and equal rights as Americans…
I was acctually referring to all the revenue that will be taken in by a two male household. they pay taxes a a gay couple, and in general men make more than women! So therefore, two men in one house will generat more taxes for the city they live in!
I think it is quite funny the prop 2 passed meaning chickend now have mroe rights than gay people!
The problem here is that Prop 8 as well as the prior legislative and judicial decisions on the matter of same sex marriages is all or nothing. White or black. Right or wrong.
The world and our “situation” is none of these.
Really now, if same sex couples desire marriage why should we from a civil rights standpoint deny this.
Really now, if those who do not “believe” in nor want their children taught that it is “ok to be gay” or that “same sex marriage” is “right” in the eyes of the parents and their belief system, why should we require to have this message delivered to them in schools ?
Really now if a religion does not want to endorse what it believes to be sinful as a part of its institution, should it be ?
If Prop 8 does not/had not passed, would it be in the rights of the “Yes’ers to pursue “Gay churches” to stop preaching that Gay marriage is all of a sudden against their religion ?
Is the question whether we should treat divergent views on sexuality in the same manner ? . . ..
Are race and sexual orientation in the same league from a discrimination standpoint ?
Is it immoral to deny homosexuality as being right or wrong ?
Is it immoral to discriminate based upon certain things (color, race) but not on others (sexual orientation, religion).
I think that if supporters to include those that are “family oriented” or conservative Christians, or black American Obama lovers that love Jesus and don’t support the gay platform as well as opponents including the Gay community, civil rights advocates, or anyone that simply doesn’t “have a problem with ‘It’ ” really want to figure this out then the black or white/right or wrong/yes or no/left or right attitudes that both sides carry really need to be dropped.
Everyone needs to chill out.
Stop with the BS and name calling.
Stop with the political, social, and religious posturing and mis-quoting and rhetoric.
Stop with the hate and the pretenses.
See past our own prejudices, preconceptions, and predetermination.
Put down our pride and arrogance and self rightousness and selfishness.
Stop being crybabies and martyrs and your, in general, pack of adults that still think and act like they are in Kindergarten.
And really hold an honest, sincere, reasonable, fair way to create a community discussion on this thing.
So that our society, our homes, our friends, lovers, partners, families, etc. . can all live together in peace and harmony.
Nothing will change unless we all pull our heads out of our butts and stop being so obstinate and selfish about our own closed-mindedness.
The “Yes’ers” and the “No’ers” are exactly the same wolves that just wear different clothing.
God has given us the freedom to CHOOSE.
We have a choice to please Him or to please ourselves… it’s that simple.
If you don’t believe in God then how can you please Him? Why would you even try?
If you don’t believe in God then you may look at the teachings of God, the laws of God as controlling, restrictive & offensive.
What people don’t get is that God gave us His laws to PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES. He gave us His laws for our own good.
Now, as a human, do I like the laws? Noway! It takes away all my fun… many would say. Well there are consequences to every choice. God is trying to protect us from those consequnces… it’s that simple.
But if you don’t believe in God, then there’s no assuance of an after life, so why bother trying to control myself. I’ll just give in to every urge I have. Hmmm… but we don’t go around killing people… so we do have some self control… when we want to… or when the consequence is too great for us to pay.
So homosexual marriage = I want what I want and don’t tell me I’m wrong or you must hate me. That’s not good logic nor it is fair to tell me that I hate you just becuase I disagree.
“two men in one house will generate more taxes for the city they live in! ”
Oh no! Why did we pass this prop. Clearly homosexuality is the most economical choice!
Trueblue - You make many statements that just don’t have quantifiable or qualifiable support. For example, “chickens have more rights than gay people!” Is this a serious statement? Is the income tax that the homosexual couple generates materially different from the tax savings they would experience? Would your answer change if they had deductions or credits for adopted dependents? It seems like you’ve been drinking some strong kool aid from somewhere. Just check your facts and think about what you’re saying before you type.
Gaylover of Christ
If you are “gay” and you are knowingly praticing homosexulaity then you are disobeying Christ. Loving Christ means obeying him, obeying Christ is how you have a relationship with Him. Christ said he was both Lord & Savior… Lord means we try to do what he says, we try to please him. Savior means we depend on what He did on the cross to be forgiven.
We can’t please him & disobey him and the same time and be unwilling to change our ways. We all make mistakes but we make it our goal to please him… not to walk in disobedience.
This goes for all who call themselves Christians.
” If you are “gay” and you are knowingly praticing homosexulaity then you are disobeying Christ. ”
I am not Gay but I try my best to love my Gay brothers and Sisters whether or not they believe in Christ.
I also try my best to love my non-Gay brothers and sisters whether or not they believe in Christ.
I am also a lover of Christ.
Sometimes its hard to love, especially in this world we live in. . . isn’t it ?
GayloverofChrist - The answer to all of your questions are in the thread above. You have great intentions, and I like your message of peace and harmony. But if you cannot tell from this, many people (not all) are intellectually passionate and fascinated by this. The tone of your message (”everyone needs to chill out”) seems to urge us to not talk about it, to not share our feelings, our passions, our beliefs, our conscience. I hope that’s not your message to Americans on this thread, as the right to expression is one I think all of us here hold dearly–regardless of each others’ point of view. So join in the debate, don’t put down others (e.g., “Put down our pride and arrogance and self rightousness and selfishness”), and let your mind think through it all. I’m sure none of us here thinks we’re prideful, arrogant, etc. so try and stay away from characterizing viewpoints and, instead, just debate them on their merits.
Sorry. . . to make it short I am:
Gay Lover (i.e. I love Gays but am not Gay)
and
Lover of Christ
“in general men make more than women!”
So what about the lesbian couples?
23i9h ,
I do say lets talk about in my first post. . . I just say lets not all be such donkeys about it, which, yes, everyone (yes’ers and no’ers) are being.
Not saying all that to put down anyone. . . so sorry if that is the way it comes across . . . Just calling it the way it appears (not just on this forum but out here in the little part of OC that I see too.
I just read the deputy city attorney of SF is prepared to initiate round 3 with a suit challenging the constitutionality of 8. Does he not understand that 52% of the STATE (not his city alone) just expressed–through a record volume of voters–their desire to maintain the traditional definition of “marriage”? I understand his biases and the constituency that elects him and his collegues, but let it go pal. The people of CA has spoken their will. You’re entitled to file whatever suit you want, but what is that saying about your respect for and your perspective of the majority of California voters?
Sexual preference is your choice, men and women are not born gay or straight. They are born to learn what is right in the eyes of the creator. It takes a true male and a true female to procreate and have a true family. You can put together a group of unrelated people and call it a family; however, it’s still only a group of unrelated people living together in a loving atmosphere, not a family. This is a right and privilege of opposite sex individuals to unite and procreate, to carry on a blood line whether or not they are capable of reproducing.
If it is discrimination to oppose same sex marriage based on sexual preference; what other preferences should we include; man and beast? Should we not discriminate against age all together and let children decide on their own if they won’t to have sex with an adult? Should we not discriminate against the drinking age and let everyone exercise free will? Should we allow same sex individuals to marry even if they are not gay just to reap the same benefits? NO.
What about the “fundamental” rights of straight people? If gay’s have “fundamental” rights, then straight people should have fundamental rights as well. Why should straights be forced to accept a life style they do not believe in?
You may not believe in God or Jesus Christ but there is a creator, God, and God created man and women for a purpose. God created male and female of every species. Even plants are male and female. Talk it over with God and see what happens.
We need to revisit Prop 8 and everything that has preceded it. That’s what the issue is and continues to be. . .its all black and white in a world of gray.
We have just witnessed the greatest act of discrimination in 40 years. 61% of whites voted for this OBAMAnation (look how far we’ve come)while 90% of blacks voted for him. I’m sure many of them that had never voted in their lives, and after cashing there welfare checks, managed to get out and vote for Obama based on his color only with absolutely no consideration for his policies. Now that’s sad.
To all you Yes on 8 supporters. God is watching and listening to you all. He heard all the lies you spoke on your adds. He hates it that you used kids to get your lies out there. You will meet your maker and you will be judged. I voted No on 8. I voted No because I believe in human rights. It’s a crying shame Californians cared more about animal rights than human rights. This message is to all those straight men out there who voted Yes.. Stop asking my wife and I if you can watch us kiss. And to the “straight” women out there who voted Yes. Stop coming into our bars and asking us for 3-somes. You both are so gross. I guess you voted Yes because you don’t think we are human.
This is what Prop 8 should have been all about………….
“If you want to marry in the State of California, you must first register with the state as Domestic Partners for 1 year. And only after you have made it pass the one year mark will you be granted a marriage license.” Might cut down on 50% of them ending in divorce. Would stop all the drunken split second marriages. All people need to respect marriage. Prop 8 should not have been about taking rights away that were granted. How can we take away rights after they were granted? How can this be fair? How can a majority decide for a minority? All those Californians who voted YES. Why? Can you even answer that question without saying one of the lies you were told watching those lies on one of their commercials. No, you can’t because you really didn’t do your homework. Now because you didn’t do your homework, “Go to your room and do not come out until you have finished your homework.”