Why California’s gay marriage vote matters nationally
October 14th, 2008, 1:58 pm · 98 Comments · posted by BRIAN JOSEPH, Sacramento Correspondent
The University of Southern California’s Initiative and Referendum Institute has a fascinating new report on Proposition 8, which seeks to outlaw gay marriage in California.
Besides walking readers through a history of gay marriage measures in other states, the report offers a succinct analysis of why so much — money, effort, time — has been dumped into this campaign.
As the report states: “The huge amount of money being channeled to fight this proposition, despite its minimal economic impact, reflects the view of both sides that California is a critical firewall in the battle over gay marriage. Rejection of Proposition 8, in effect a popular affirmation of the right to gay marriage, would provide tremendous momentum to the gay rights side, especially since it comes in a huge state that is seen by many as a trendsetter.”
The report adds that campaign finance reports show out-of-state contributions to both the Yes and No campaigns for Prop. 8 are high. It concludes that ”Spending on Proposition 8, currently at $55 million, is likely to reach a record level for a social issue.”
That dovetails with something my colleague at the Register, Marla Jo Fisher, told me — that her mother, in Utah, that the Mormon church is asking residents there to urge their California friends to support Prop. 8.
This measure, clearly, means something to activists across the country. It’ll be interesting to see how that plays out on Nov. 4.
Read more about Proposition 8:
- Neighbors at odds over Prop. 8
- Local donors give $1.6 million for ban on gay marriage
- Is tide turning on gay marriage amendment
October 14th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
I think same-sex marriage is OK. Same-sex couples are just as committed in their romantic relationships as heterosexual couples, say researchers who have studied the quality of adult relationships and healthy development. I have a friend getting married with the same sex under the help of the site **BiLoves dotcom** (a site for exploring sexuality, coming out, enjoying life, etc. And there are about 150 members per day and they are very active). And they live happily and wonderfully. If you go there frequently, you may find what you want more easily and frequently.
October 14th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
The world will end if gay marriage is allowed, cats will marry dogs and the economy will collapse. (I just thought I would get the conversation started.)
October 14th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
It isn’t surprising that there is such a large response to Proposition 8, considering the implications it could have on the future of California and of our country.
If proposition 8 doesn’t pass it will affect future laws regarding the legality of voicing beliefs against homosexuality as well as the ability of churches not supporting homosexuality to be able to claim tax exempt status, among other things.
Yes on 8!
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1815820715?bctid=1822459319
October 14th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Proposition 8 is an issue for the entire country because it addresses the rights of American voters.
In 2000, California passed Proposition 22 (which addressed the exact same issues as Proposition
by an overwhelming majority of 61% to 39%. Earlier this year, however, the decision of the people of California was overturned by four judges on the state supreme court.
If only for political reasons, voters should vote YES on Prop 8 to show that laws are still created by the people, not just by the government.
Yes on Prop 8.
http://www.protectmarriage.com
http://www.whatisprop8.com
October 14th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
I most be getting old I can still remember when gay meant you were happy and the rainbow reminded you of GOD and people like this made you upchuck your lunch and when you got married you became husband and wife not dumb and dumber.
October 14th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
What gives anyone the right to say who someone can love or not love? Who can marry or not marry? Domestic partnership doesn’t give that equality, it doesn’t give them guarantee of insurance benefits or tax deductions for marriage. I am straight, I love my husband but I know I shouldn’t have a say if my neighbor/friend or family wants to marry same sex. If that is going to give them happiness then so be it!!!!! Let them have the same rights as everyone else! Instead of stepping forward in time its more like we have stepped back in time to segregation and out and out prejudice! Shame on everyone who votes yes!
October 14th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Mormon millionaires from Utah bought Prop 8. Now, they are trying to buy its outcome. Laughable. Imagine Mormons giving moral direction about the nature of marriage. Mormons?? Their own founder had two dozen wives.
It’s shameful and ridiculous that any so-called Christians support Prop 8. They do so with the same fervent hatred that opposed inter-racial marriage just 50 years ago. They cite the usual select passages from the Bible, and leave out all the others. The ones about love. Respect. Decency.
They rely on Bronze Age admonitions to justify their creaking prejudices. They lost the inter-racial marriage battle. Soon, they will lose the same-gender marriage battle. Why? Because real Americans believe in fair play. And REAL Americans always defeat bigots and ignorance — every time.
It’s why we have become such a great country. And will always be so. Thank God.
October 14th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
The labels on the two lines in the graph are reversed, currently Precent for Prop 8 is winning. The Oct 6 Survey USA poll had Prop 8 winning and the older Field polls had it losing. Please fix your labels OC Register.
October 14th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
“I most be getting old I can still remember when gay meant you were happy and the rainbow reminded you of GOD and people like this made you upchuck your lunch and when you got married you became husband and wife not dumb and dumber.”
Please don’t tell me you’re registered to vote.
October 14th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
You can believe whatever you want to believe but marriage is between a man and a woman. I’m a minority and do not see how interracial marriage is in anyway related to gay marriage. If you disagree with Christianity, that’s up to you but the bible is clear on this issue. Gay sex (and straight adulterous sex) is evil and harmful. No one is telling you that you can’t have sex with someone of your own sex. But marriage should be reserved to one man and one woman. I actually find Christians who support gay marriage more insulting than the gays who are trying to push their gay agenda.
October 14th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
The report ignores the most recent Survey USA poll and gives more weight to the Field Poll which showed Prop 8 losing in September. However, the Field poll has in the past underestimated support for bans on gay marriage. Look at the Field poll on Prop 22. It’s final poll had Prop 22 wining by 52%, it actually won by 61.5% Also missing from the USC report is the poll conducted by LA Times in May showing Yes on Prop 8 winning 54% to 35%
October 14th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
trent280 The Mormon men had two dozen wife’s not two dozen husbands. You also need to read the complete bible not just the one or two that you misquoted. What the Mormons did was wrong just like gay marriage is wrong. But don’t worry no matter what the outcome of prop 8 some Liberal Judge will crawl out from under his rock long enough to overrule the true Americans and you and your boyfriend can come out of the closet vote for Obama and get married.
October 14th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Just a few months ago, all the anti-traditional marriage people were saying that this proposition would fail but now the facts are coming out of the closet.
So “whether you like it or not” this is going to happen and the traditional marraige folks thanks to the endorsement of Obama and Mccain will win again. Sorry Gavin!
October 14th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
To those for Prop. 8: Why do other people’s lives matter so much to you?
I am a straight female with no qualms with gay marriage. I’m not religious but I grew up going to church. To those of you who are against gay unions because of your religious beliefs: Isn’t it ultimately up to God to judge us? What gives you the right, the audacity, to decide who is allowed to marry whom?
For those of you who simply throw outdated Bible verses at the subject, haven’t you realized that the words in that book were written thousands of years ago? Things change and evolve and we must change and evolve with them. There is no burning bush in 2008. (Although I know there’s one Bush about to be burned.)
October 14th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
…i’m voting yes on prop 8…
October 14th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
The majority of good-hearted Californians are voting against this silly proposition, including this very newspaper and the governor. Prop 8 mentions nothing of changing curriculum in schools. It wont. It mentions nothing of eliminating tax exemption for churches. It wont. It does mention eliminating an already-given right to many of your co-workers, neighbors, friends, and family members. Support them, don’t upset them. Vote no.
October 14th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
I’m also voting yes on Prop 8. Gay marriage is just plain disgusting!
October 14th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Yes On Prop 8!!!!!!!
October 14th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Well, I’m voting NO ON PROP 8. I believe in the ideals of America and the Bill of Rights. Religion and hate have no place in our constitution. $55 million dollars spent because of this bigotry, 10 years from now we are going to look at this as such a national disgrace. Come on people, pay attention to your own family, don’t take rights away from other Americans.
October 14th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
One of the downsides of democracy, or at least ours, is that in all fairness we have to give everyone the same civil rights. We can’t say all men are equal and then impose slavery. Personally, I think gay marriage mocks traditional sexual relations by suggesting that gay sex is no different than heterosexual sex. Most psychologists will tell you that homosexuality is abnormal, aberrant behavior. It serves no purpose (propogation of the species, for example). I still don’t understand why gays feel ‘pride.’ I guess they recognize their behavior is abnormal and need the make themselves feel better, much like men who post bumper stickers on their cars stating ‘real men love Jesus’ knowing that loving Jesus is in direct contradiction to traditional notions of manhood. Anyway, vote yes on prop 8.
October 14th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Those who are against same-sex marriage are promoting discrimination. I’m straight, so is my wife, but we’re open to supporting same sex couples just like we do interracial couples. I spoke with one couple supporting Prop 8 - they told me marriage should only be between a WHITE man and a WHITE women (they believe other races should not be allowed to marry). That’s great - showing just how dumb their discrimination is. In my mind everyone I see saying “Yes” on prop 8 is just like that couple, close minded and discriminating. There was a time when women couldn’t vote, when women were not counted as equal, when a black man was a considered property and a fraction of a human, when blacks couldn’t marry whites. American’s wised up with time and moved past these ignorant beliefs and discrimination. Today we must move past blocking same sex marriages.
We are all humans, we all need to treat each other with respect and allow all people the freedoms to be happy in life. Live your life the way you want to, don’t hurt others, and don’t try to force your life on others. So what if two guys live together next door to me - chances are they would be more successful and better neighbors.
October 15th, 2008 at 12:26 am
This is the most important issue of our generation because it will shape our society for generations to come.
whatisprop8.com
whatisprop8.com
http://www.preservingmarriage.org/video_01.html
October 15th, 2008 at 12:39 am
The Bible says that to be with someone of the same sex is an abomination to God. I don’t care what the world thinks is right, I care what God says is right and so should all of you. The Bible is very clear that to be Gay is wrong, the people that argue that don’t read the Bible. The definition of marriage is man and woman and that should never be changed. So are the supporters of gay marriage saying that we have to support people no matter what their choices. What if some people decide that they want to marry children, or their pets? Should that be legal? You have to be moral, not go with the flow. God created us and God says it’s wrong. There shouldn’t be any question about it. Gays are wrong and we should not support their lifestyles. They are a bad influence on the youth, and it will be worse if prop 8 doesn’t pass. Get real people same sex relationships are not natural. Do not support something that is against God.
October 15th, 2008 at 2:02 am
Thanks, guys. You make my point better than I did. Support of Prop 8 is based on ignorance, bias and fear, as you have so ably demonstrated.
Prop 8 denies a basic civil right to a large group of our citizens. In the past, we did this to blacks, Jews, and native indians. Most decent Americans realize that we were wrong. We did it to inter-racial couples for generations. We were wrong. Society evolved.
Today, bigots are trying to do the same to gay Americans. Your fears are understandable, but unfounded and irrational. Numerous other jurisdictions have permitted gay marriage, for years. Canada, Norway, Spain, Denmark, Massachussetts etc etc have not exploded. It’s business as usual in every one of them — except that they extended civil liberties to thousands.
Why are you afraid of liberty? Why are you opposed to freedom? Why do you oppose the idea of America, “with liberty and justice for all”?
You have been conditioned by fear, to fear. It’s sort of sad. It’s unnecessary. It’s unmanly. It represents cowardice, and not power.
If you were truly Americans, unafraid of the future, you would support all of our citizens as they seek the rights that we take for granted.
It’s the American way, you know.
Or, perhaps you’d be happier living in a place where there is only one point of view, and only one way to live. Say, North Korea. You might like it better there.
America is reserved for free men, not cowards.
October 15th, 2008 at 2:24 am
Should Prop. 8 fail, you can bet your bottom dollar that every polygamist, polyandrist, etc., or other fringe group out there will be petitioning government or the courts the very next day, arguing to be included under the umbrella of marriage freedom. And, based upon the CA Supreme Court’s rationale that ALL parties petitioning for marriage are entitled to the equal protection under the laws as guaranteed by the 14th Amendment, that would also include the aforementioned groups. I hope that those same gay/lesbian groups and the ACLU will fight just as hard for the Warren Jeffs of the world as they have for their own positions.
You open the gate for one, you might as well open the floodgates for all.
October 15th, 2008 at 3:22 am
No one is denying the civil rights of gays. This is about the definition of marriage. The Bible says in Genesis 3:24 “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” That’s what marriage is. The union of one man and one woman. That’s GOD’S word. Not man’s.
To compare the “struggle” of the right for gays to marry to the struggles of Blacks, Jews and Native Indians is borderline criminal. Those comparisons could not be further apart. Blacks, Jews and Native Indians fought for the right to live, and be recognized not only as a free people, but people! Stop using those comparisons. It belittles them and you.
The Bible says in Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” That’s also GOD’S word. Not man’s. This country was founded on Christian principles. Check your history. Christian principles are based on GOD’S word, not man’s. Of course, people have abused GOD’S word for many years, and no one can deny that. But sin is sin, and we need to call it what it is. Now before your head pops off, read this: JESUS CHRIST paid the price for everyone’s sins. Yours, mine, everyone. JESUS also taught that we should hate the sin but love the sinner. That’s what HE did. That’s the example he gave us.
As for other countries, just because they’ve allowed gay marriage doesn’t make it right. To coin an old phrase, if they jumped off a bridge, would you? I know that sounds silly, but think about it.
We need to get back to the basic ideals this country was founded on. The reason we’re in such a mess now is because we’ve turned our back on those basic ideals. Greed, lust, the relentless pursuit of money and immorality rule the day, and instead of putting an end to it, we’re trying to find ways to perpetrate it!
Many of our citizens paid the ultimate price so that we could live freely in this country. If gay people want to make the choice to spend their lives together, that’s their right. I say let them. They already have every civil right a married man and woman have.
But don’t force me to give up my right to the real, GOD given, definition of marriage.
Being American doesn’t mean we should adopt any idea that comes along. Being American means fighting for the ideals that made America America. Again, check your history.
Vote yes on Prop 8.
October 15th, 2008 at 3:27 am
Yes on Prop 8.
This is about retaining marriage as it has been recognized throughout history.
It is not based on hate, or fear but on what marriage has always been. It merely restores marriage to the way it has always been in CA before a few activist judges suddenly discovered a new “right.”
And its kind of strange that this should even be controversial.
And its also strange and hypocritical that those who support gay marraige and call those opposed haters and bigots are themselves so full of those very same things as seen in some of the comments about this.
Neither I, nor my friends who are supporting prop 8 hate or fear homosexuals. It is very possible to be opposed to something without hating or fearing those who practice it, and even being able to love and respect them as human beings–a fact that many homosexuals and their supporters can’t seem to comprehend.
October 15th, 2008 at 5:06 am
Last time I checked there was a serperation from Church and State. What is or is not in the Bible, should not have any bearing on what law is passed in the United States, “the land of the free”. I am a straight married woman with 2 children. Like almost everyone I know, I have gay family and friends. They may not like who I chose as my partner, but they support my decision, and I will support thiers. Passing a law to ban the marriage of gay people, is not going to stop them from being gay. A marriage between two people only effects the two people being married. I would never ask anyone to go against their beliefs and would expect the same of others. Prop 8 should never have been on the balot. To the ignorant people who support the law, there are gay people in the world, get over it!
October 15th, 2008 at 7:20 am
When Jesus loves me…I make him wear a condom.
Marriage equality does nothing to infringe on ‘marriage’ in any way shape or form. Now the wing-nuts will say differently, however buried deep in Vatican documents are the truths that not only were priests allowed to marry and have children, but that some same sex unions were indeed blessed by the church. These of corse were happening in pre-Dark ages times. BTW: the Dark ages were caused by the invasion of Christianity into society. Prior to this, society funtioned just fine actually giving us the basis of our rules, laws, and system of government. Christianity did not invent Civility, they only plagerized it as they have with their high holy days, and dogmatic ceremonies.
I really get tired of this ” ………………… is based on Christian principles bull crap” , in actuality Christianity in nothing but a number of ideas and values that have been begged, borrowed and stolen from other societies, religions, and traditions….
Dave
October 15th, 2008 at 8:28 am
Wow—equality for all people under the law is a “downside” of democracy, Dudeman? Gay people are so scary as to make you “upchuck your lunch,” Caseclosed?
I read a lot of California newspaper websites, and the pro-Prop-8 commenters on the Register’s site are consistently the most aggressively ignorant of the bunch. Orange County is to 2008 California what the deep South was to 1960’s America.
October 15th, 2008 at 8:46 am
This is ridiculous that we are spending so much time and money on the subject. Don’t we have more important issues like the Iraq war and the economy, rather than telling people who love eachother what they can or can’t do. So much for the belief that church and state should be separated.
To all of you who are supporting Prop 8, I think the next prop should be that we should ban interracial marriage. I’m sure all the people voting yes on 8 have enough hate for others that this would surely pass.
October 15th, 2008 at 8:55 am
Please, no matter where you are in the country, please donate $25.00 to the No on 8 campaign. If we can get 1 million people to donate $25.00 each the campaign will have $25.00 million dollars. The Yes on 8 campaign is now running ads with 4 year old children saying that we are teaching them to marry someone of the same gender. Unbelievable. I can’t believe what I am seeing on TV and hearing on the radio stations in the Orange County/Los Angeles area where I live.
Please donate so we can defeat this measure. These people will stop at nothing to promote lies, hate, and bigotry, along with denying basic rights against fellow gay Americans.
October 15th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Since when is a state-issued license a basic right?
October 15th, 2008 at 9:07 am
Vote yes on prop 8 and preserve the traditional family.
October 15th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Trent, I think it is useful to note that most of us who support Proposition 8 are not the bigots you have labeled us so eloquently. Bigots by definition tend to be intolerant of opposing points of view. Judging by your comments, it seems as if you are showing some of the very same tendecies that you happen to be railing against.
The gay marriage issue to many of us is a moral and ethical issue based upon our personal beliefs, nothing less. If you wish to call us ignorant or some other derogatory term, that is your right. Honestly, it won’t affect us either way.
Gays have the same rights that I do and they are asking to be granted a new “right”. They can marry (nearly) anyone of the opposite sex as easily as I could, notwithstanding polygamy, etc.
I am with you when you point out that the anti-interracial marriage crowd was ethically and morally wrong. However, to say that these issues are identical misses one fundamental difference beween the minority rights you mentioned and gay rights. The minorities you mentioned above were all denied certain rights because of their beliefs or appearance. Gays are denied additional rights because of their behavior, nothing else. We deny additional rights based upon behavior every day.
Do you understand the irony in your second to last paragraph? Something about only one point of view and one way to live?
Personally, I believe that I am standing on principle (as are you) and we happen to disagree.
That is also the American way.
October 15th, 2008 at 9:15 am
Just to clarify, when I said “behavior” I merely meant the sexual acts themselves that define homosexuality. Nothing more.
October 15th, 2008 at 9:22 am
I’m not going to say that a lot of hate isn’t being thrown around on this issue (from both sides), but I it’s simply not fair or accurate to claim that all supporters of Prop 8 are hateful and bigoted. Without marriage, civil unions are still legal in the state, so to me Prop 8 is about changing the definition of marriage - a definition that is much more deeply rooted in religion and culture than governmental regulation. My vote’s a yes, and I can still love gay people in my life.
October 15th, 2008 at 9:25 am
Ken: You’re perfectly correct. A driver’s license must be earned by right of age, skill and its proof. A crane operator’s license requires the same, as does a pilot’s license, or a teaching certificate, or a license to practice law or medicine. These all vary by state.
A marriage license? Quite different. It is earned by meeting certain minimal residency, age and medical requirements. Primarily, it is earned by right of citizenship.
Those of us who believe in America believe said right must be the inherent property of ALL Americans, and not just the majority of heterosexuals to which (I gather) you and I belong.
As you know, 50+ years ago the right of marriage was restricted to persons of the same race. Finally, we overcame that disgusting prejudice. Society evolved. It took generations.
Today, by defeating Prop 8, we will be achieving the same in regard to gender equality.
It’s a VERY American principle upon which we stand, and I invite you and all of my fellow straight friends to join us, and to stand up for a great American ideal: fair play.
Thanks for asking.
October 15th, 2008 at 10:06 am
Interracial marriage has existed throughout all of history. It’s not a valid comparison. It wasn’t like guys were marrying guys until some Bible-thumper stood up and said “Stop! We need to outlaw this!” Even in societies where homosexuality was openly practiced, marriage was always between a man and a woman.
Anyone has the right to live with the consenting adult they choose, to make commitments, to participate in ceremonies, to ask other people to consider them spouses. However, nobody has the right to force the unwilling to give them something - in this case, marriage licenses. Heterosexual couples don’t have the right, either, by the way. As a society, we CHOOSE to issue marriage licenses.
Prop 8 is a blow to judicial usurpation of power belonging to the people.
October 15th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
“Society” does not issue marriage licenses. Marriage licenses are legal contracts issued by state governments.
Should the state be allowed to reject your application for a marriage license because one of you is a certain race? Religion? Age? Skin color? Ancestry? What if one of you is a Democrat and the other a Republican?
How can you make the case for discrimination based upon gender when discrimination based upon all of the above criteria (and more- the state cannot refuse a marriage license because one of you likes the color blue and the other likes the color red) is not permitted?
Legal contracts issued by the state should be given regardless of what gender you are. It is not the state’s responsibility to protect some group’s idea of what marriage should be.
If the state can discriminate on gender in marriage contracts, why not in other contracts too? Maybe we should only let females get cosmetology licenses because traditionally, females have been the hair stylists. Maybe only asian women should be allowed to get state licenses to do nails.
See all the horrible places this sort of thinking leads to?
October 15th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Hi SoCalWingnut: Thx for yours. Most thoughtful.
Any nation which believes in majoritarian rule is always confounded by the idea of ‘equal protection under the law’ for its minorities. We struggle with the rights of blacks in a system whose original sin was slavery. We struggle with ‘Jewish quotas’ which persisted for generations, even at such great schools as Harvard and Yale.
Everyone knows the history of the great waves of Irish immigration in the 19th C, and the notorious signs reading ‘No dogs or Irish allowed’. Genocidal practices advanced by our own push West led to the destruction of whole societies.
But we have evolved, with struggle and pain, to admit our past, and try to reconcile it with our values.
Today, those who offended by gay marriage are, lamentably, making the same arguments we have always heard when a minority seeks rights otherwise granted to the majority. In our country, even statistical MAJORITIES have had to struggle: you will recall the Suffragette movement, and the century it took women to win the vote.
Today, those offended by gay marriage contrive their arguments on the basis of what they purport to be Natural Law, or God’s Law, or the Law of Tradition. They always seek shelter in such rationalizations.
And yet, the very people who criticize gays for alleged promiscuity would deny them the right to marry.
And yet, the very arguments made today against gay marriage were made 50 years ago against inter-racial marriage — and often by the same people, no less.
And today, those arguments are failing. Why? Because young people know better. White kids have black friends, Japanese kids have Indian friends, and all kids have gay friends. And they all know it. And they are unafraid.
The Chicken Little arguments made by the Prop 8 people are simp